Mungo's monetary musings.

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Expand view Topic review: Mungo's monetary musings.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Fletch » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:32 pm

As some of you seem to be confusing economics with the system of money, they are not the same thing, you can now answer this:

All money is created (worldwide) as debt by private banks yet the interest payable on that money is never created.

Where will it come from?


The system of money is the creation and extinguishing of money for a country. That is supplying the money supply required for nations to operate.

Economics is the management of the system forced on the world.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Fletch » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:27 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.


First bit in large text, 90 day bonds issued by government to private banks? :link:

Second bit in large text, wtf? :scratch: Link to that evidence please? :link:

Governments can't take money out of circulation, only banks can do that, and do. Governments can only redirect money.,

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Fletch » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 pm

MungoBrush wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.


What Fletch and Rolluplostinspace don’t understand is that that Bank of England site actually contradicts the crap that they have been regurgitating

And actually backing up what I have been posting.
But you have to be able to read and understand English grammar to understand it

I’ve been trying to help them
But if you are helping someone to become a runner, it’s no use if they don’t get their arse off the sofa.
That’s why they need to do their homework.


You'll have to explain that fist bit in large text mungo.

Second bit in large text: You haven't said anything mungo, not for years. :scratch:

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Fletch » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:16 pm

Guest wrote:
Fletch wrote:
MungoBrush wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:
LordRaven wrote:Ed Balls and Gordon Brown eat your heart out, Felch and Rollup know better :header:

You might have noticed Lardy that me and Fletch have argued for years that money is created as debt by banks and all these people have ridiculed us and said otherwise?
We've stuck to our guns providing ever more evidence and finally it's accepted that banks do indeed create the money supply as debt.
We've had tales of the river bank about utter bollox we've had all kinds of dodging and swerving and denial but I think we've finally arrived at yes money is created as debt by the banks .... now the latest swerve is .... but the government control how much there is in the economy!
Anything but say .... ok I we were wrong ..... people just can't do it can they.
I've apologised for being wrong or misunderstanding something three times this week .... one apology was to you .... it's dead easy to do but quite radical it would seem on here.
So shut the fuck up and accept that yes Fletch and Rollup were right .... being on the side of The Bank of The Bank of England while everyone else were spouting very old conspiracy theories made it an inevitable result.


Garbage garbage garbage
Crap crap crap
Bollox bollox bollox

Now go and do the homework I set you
Then come back and tell us what you have learned
Then I will show you why you are Wrong wrong wrong.


You've used that excuse before mungo.

If you don't believe private banks create money as debt then extinguish on repayment. how is it created and by who?

You say money is created by banks

Bitcoins are money but they are not created by banks

Therefore you are wrong.

QED


The Coinbase Card is a Visa debit card powered by customers’ Coinbase account crypto balances, which allows them to make purchases with digital currencies worldwide. Coinbase instantly converts customers' cryptocurrency funds into fiat currency in order to complete the purchase.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinbase ... -customers

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Cactus Jack » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:45 pm

McHenry wrote:Apologies, CJ, I have just noticed that I did not provide a link to where my extract was taken and which also greatly expands on it - particularly in the pdf onsite.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-is-money-created

Good link Henry - it's not a bad primer on the subject and it does make clear that rather than acting as rogue private companies central banks could more accurately be described as arms length government agencies.

As a forum veteran you'll know that when you get into the weeds a problem both on both right and left is they can't see there is no distinct line between what is government and what is private industry. For a complex economy to function the level of interaction between both is sometimes so intricate as to make one indistinguishable from the other. So we end up with Maddog insisting that your local school is 'The Government' and Art insisting that all doctors are employed by drug companies to poison your children.

I guess the obvious example to use is the BBC, a charter corporation entirely independent of the government that is nonetheless highly dependant on the government for funding and heavily regulated, in part by Ofcom which is itself another arms length government agency. To counteract them both we sensible people have to say equating the BBC to the government is like saying Jeremy Wright put last night's episode of Eastenders on TV, there is some truth to it but it's far from being the whole picture.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by McHenry » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:24 pm

MungoBrush wrote:
McHenry wrote: god has gifted me a money free life. :smilin:


Another criminal who found god in prison no doubt.


Who, where - and what god? :scratch:

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by MungoBrush » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:13 pm

McHenry wrote: god has gifted me a money free life. :smilin:


Another criminal who found god in prison no doubt.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by McHenry » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:34 pm

MungoBrush wrote:But this thread was started nearly a year ago by Fletch for me to explain some aspects of financial economics
He even named the thread after me recognising my expertise in the subject
But after all this time, and after all these exchanges it’s clear that he hasn’t learned a thing
Hence my frustration when he continues to post the same old crap like a stuck record.


I'm not interested in your fractured ego, Mongo - heal it elsewhere.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by MungoBrush » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:17 pm

McHenry wrote:
MungoBrush wrote:
McHenry wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.


I know, but my intention here is to steer this (imv) futile discussion towards an authority on the subject, nothing more. Frankly, except for the political aspects of money creation, which have already been discussed ad nauseam, I have no interest whatsoever (in every meaning of that term) - god has gifted me a money free life. :smilin:


In which case, if you did know anything at all about money creation you would be presenting the whole story, not just some small fragment of the overall picture

This what I have been trying to steer Fletch and Rolluplostinspace towards

But to date it’s all been futile
They seem to be stuck in their little fantasy world and won’t countenance any facts or authoritative theories that contradict them in their little bubble.


I know what anyone can know - but as I said I have nothing other than a peripheral interest in the subject. :thumbsup:


Fair enough
But this thread was started nearly a year ago by Fletch for me to explain some aspects of financial economics
He even named the thread after me recognising my expertise in the subject
But after all this time, and after all these exchanges it’s clear that he hasn’t learned a thing
Hence my frustration when he continues to post the same old crap like a stuck record.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by McHenry » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:54 pm

MungoBrush wrote:
McHenry wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.


I know, but my intention here is to steer this (imv) futile discussion towards an authority on the subject, nothing more. Frankly, except for the political aspects of money creation, which have already been discussed ad nauseam, I have no interest whatsoever (in every meaning of that term) - god has gifted me a money free life. :smilin:


In which case, if you did know anything at all about money creation you would be presenting the whole story, not just some small fragment of the overall picture

This what I have been trying to steer Fletch and Rolluplostinspace towards

But to date it’s all been futile
They seem to be stuck in their little fantasy world and won’t countenance any facts or authoritative theories that contradict them in their little bubble.


I know what anyone can know - but as I said I have nothing other than a peripheral interest in the subject. :thumbsup:

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by McHenry » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:50 pm

Apologies, CJ, I have just noticed that I did not provide a link to where my extract was taken and which also greatly expands on it - particularly in the pdf onsite.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-is-money-created

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by MungoBrush » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:47 pm

McHenry wrote:
Cactus Jack wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.


I know, but my intention here is to steer this (imv) futile discussion towards an authority on the subject, nothing more. Frankly, except for the political aspects of money creation, which have already been discussed ad nauseam, I have no interest whatsoever (in every meaning of that term) - god has gifted me a money free life. :smilin:


In which case, if you did know anything at all about money creation you would be presenting the whole story, not just some small fragment of the overall picture

This what I have been trying to steer Fletch and Rolluplostinspace towards

But to date it’s all been futile
They seem to be stuck in their little fantasy world and won’t countenance any facts or authoritative theories that contradict them in their little bubble.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Cannydc » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:45 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.


Excellent post, CJ.

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by McHenry » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:30 pm

Cactus Jack wrote:
McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.


I know, but my intention here is to steer this (imv) futile discussion towards an authority on the subject, nothing more. Frankly, except for the political aspects of money creation, which have already been discussed ad nauseam, I have no interest whatsoever (in every meaning of that term) - god has gifted me a money free life. :smilin:

Re: Mungo's monetary musings.

Post by Cactus Jack » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:22 pm

McHenry wrote:For the hard of thinking:

Image

Money is more than banknotes and coins. If you have a bank account, you can use what’s in it to buy things, typically with a debit card. Because you can buy things with your bank account, we think of this as money even though it’s not cash.

Therefore, if you borrow £100 from the bank, and it credits your account with the amount, ‘new money’ has been created. It didn’t exist until it was credited to your account.

This also means as you pay off the loan, the electronic money your bank created is “deleted” – it no longer exists. You haven’t got richer or poorer. You might have less money in your bank account but your debts have gone down too. So essentially, banks create money, not wealth.

Except that isn't the whole story.

First your bank can only lend based on something called it's liquidity ratio. In essence it can only lend up to a certain amount and that's that. A liquidity ratio is governed by how much the bank holds in deposits and bonds and the availability of bonds is determined by the government. Most 'bonds' last for 90 days after which the government has a choice to reissue them - essentially paying them off and replacing them with new borrowing - or not, which is simply paying them off.

As the government both sets the liquidity ratio and determines how much it will raise in bonds that gives it two mechanisms to control banks but there is yet a third. Taxation, not all taxation is there to pay for government expenditure, taxation can also be used to take money out of the economy either generally, most often through interest rates, or through targeted duties, tariffs and even tax credits to encourage or discourage specific activity, and those tax credits also 'create' money.

It's all a lot more complex than the simplistic model created by people who know about 25% of the story and what to present that 25% as the whole picture.

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