by Rolluplostinspace » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:27 pm
LordRaven wrote:Fletch wrote:wutang wrote:Fletch wrote:JC is not a neoliberal. He advocates nationalisation, public services and serving the many, not the few. A change of direction is required, we can't carry on on the same course of taking from the many to give to the few. I support that aim and therefore him.
Nationalisation is not the panacea you think it is. Worker owned co-operatives would be better but even then you are still beholden to the logic of capital - i.e market forces. Plenty of nationalised industries have enforced wage restraints and other anti-worker measures in order to make the business 'profitable' and even workers-coperatives fall into this trap - "self-managed exploitation"
The problem with focusing on "neo-liberalism" is that it fails to recognise, or even attempts to hide, the fact that capitalism can fuck us in many different ways. It was fucking just as easily long before "neo-liberalism" came about.
I meant nationalisation of public services rather than wholesale nationalisation. Utilises, public transport, infrastructure, the NHS removed from CCG's and returned to public ownership/management and so on. I agree with co-operatives being better for many things but public services should be publicly owned and operated, as it used to be not so long ago, including schools.
You sound confused, but being Felch you always are.
I agree with Wutang, Nationalisation only leads to a "Big firm, they can afford" it mentality amongst workers who will get shop stewards to make huge wage demands that make the businesses unprofitable and, lacking money for R&D, turn out shite obsolete products.
The cooperative idea and making all workers Partners-like John Lewis--would be far more sound, they would all have a vested interest in ensuring they can compete
You sound confused but being Raven you always are.
Fletch didn't say anything about manufacturing selling exporting importing etc.
He said ...... Utilises, public transport, infrastructure, the NHS ............. public services should be publicly owned and operated, as it used to be not so long ago, including schools.
Which of those would become unprofitable businesses trying to flog obsolete products?
[quote="LordRaven"][quote="Fletch"][quote="wutang"][quote="Fletch"]
JC is not a neoliberal. He advocates nationalisation, public services and serving the many, not the few. A change of direction is required, we can't carry on on the same course of taking from the many to give to the few. I support that aim and therefore him.[/quote]
Nationalisation is not the panacea you think it is. Worker owned co-operatives would be better but even then you are still beholden to the logic of capital - i.e market forces. Plenty of nationalised industries have enforced wage restraints and other anti-worker measures in order to make the business 'profitable' and even workers-coperatives fall into this trap - "self-managed exploitation"
The problem with focusing on "neo-liberalism" is that it fails to recognise, or even attempts to hide, the fact that capitalism can fuck us in many different ways. It was fucking just as easily long before "neo-liberalism" came about.[/quote]
I meant nationalisation of public services rather than wholesale nationalisation. Utilises, public transport, infrastructure, the NHS removed from CCG's and returned to public ownership/management and so on. I agree with co-operatives being better for many things but public services should be publicly owned and operated, as it used to be not so long ago, including schools.[/quote]
You sound confused, but being Felch you always are.
I agree with Wutang, Nationalisation only leads to a "Big firm, they can afford" it mentality amongst workers who will get shop stewards to make huge wage demands that make the businesses unprofitable and, lacking money for R&D, turn out shite obsolete products.
The cooperative idea and making all workers Partners-like John Lewis--would be far more sound, they would all have a vested interest in ensuring they can compete[/quote]
You sound confused but being Raven you always are.
Fletch didn't say anything about manufacturing selling exporting importing etc.
He said ...... Utilises, public transport, infrastructure, the NHS ............. public services should be publicly owned and operated, as it used to be not so long ago, including schools.
Which of those would become unprofitable businesses trying to flog obsolete products?