Hmmm...He might have a point.

[Maddog]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

[Fletch]

A race to the bottom is never any good for the general population.

[curious]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

which country are you suggesting everyone is retiring at 55 and languishing on the beach? Early retirement for Greece was 57 and normal retirement 65. True there were some 580 job categories that permitted some people to retire earlier, but I believe that has changed. France was 62, the Netherlands 60, Italy 57 , Spain 60, and all those figures are for the Early Retirement Age. Most take the normal retirement which is at least 5 years older. So are you suggesting everyone work until they die? Really?

[Maddog]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

which country are you suggesting everyone is retiring at 55 and languishing on the beach? Early retirement for Greece was 57 and normal retirement 65. True there were some 580 job categories that permitted some people to retire earlier, but I believe that has changed. France was 62, the Netherlands 60, Italy 57 , Spain 60, and all those figures are for the Early Retirement Age. Most take the normal retirement which is at least 5 years older. So are you suggesting everyone work until they die? Really?

Ask Jin.

[curious]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

which country are you suggesting everyone is retiring at 55 and languishing on the beach? Early retirement for Greece was 57 and normal retirement 65. True there were some 580 job categories that permitted some people to retire earlier, but I believe that has changed. France was 62, the Netherlands 60, Italy 57 , Spain 60, and all those figures are for the Early Retirement Age. Most take the normal retirement which is at least 5 years older. So are you suggesting everyone work until they die? Really?

Ask Jin.

hmmm, i see - you had no opinion just a cut and paste...

[Maddog]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

which country are you suggesting everyone is retiring at 55 and languishing on the beach? Early retirement for Greece was 57 and normal retirement 65. True there were some 580 job categories that permitted some people to retire earlier, but I believe that has changed. France was 62, the Netherlands 60, Italy 57 , Spain 60, and all those figures are for the Early Retirement Age. Most take the normal retirement which is at least 5 years older. So are you suggesting everyone work until they die? Really?

Ask Jin.

hmmm, i see - you had no opinion just a cut and paste...

I agree with his overall premise, but I am not sure about the facts of his one example. I do believe the welfare society has crippled the west and put it into a very uncompetitive postion compared to our Eastern cousins that seem to be a bit less work shy.

[Fletch]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

which country are you suggesting everyone is retiring at 55 and languishing on the beach? Early retirement for Greece was 57 and normal retirement 65. True there were some 580 job categories that permitted some people to retire earlier, but I believe that has changed. France was 62, the Netherlands 60, Italy 57 , Spain 60, and all those figures are for the Early Retirement Age. Most take the normal retirement which is at least 5 years older. So are you suggesting everyone work until they die? Really?

Ask Jin.

hmmm, i see - you had no opinion just a cut and paste...

I agree with his overall premise, but I am not sure about the facts of his one example. I do believe the welfare society has crippled the west and put it into a very uncompetitive postion compared to our Eastern cousins that seem to be a bit less work shy.

Blaming the poorest folk for the ruling elite sharing out the wealth amongst their mates is a popular past time but not accurate.

'Welfare' spending has much grouped under that heading. It's useful to politicians to have it that way and then they allude to welfare being benefits which is also untrue.

The biggest welfare cost is pensions but do the government target pensioners as 'benefit scroungers'?

[Maddog]

The term "welfare society" can mean any redistrubution of wealth. It does not mean that the people are necessarily poor. In fact, I think that is what Jin was getting at. It has progressed from an idea to help a small minority, to an overloaded gravy train with way too many undeserving passengers.

[curious]

perhaps it is your definition of welfare system that needs clarification. It always seems that most if not all conservatives consider anyone that retired early as being on a benefits programme (welfare) or that wanting a quality health care program for all is tantamount to treason in the eyes of the conservative. One wonders why you and your cohorts feel it necessary to suggest less government intrusion when clearly the states fail to provide on a number of levels. Your failed state laws to protect citizens but lets give them the right to carry concealed weapons so people feel safer How about the police simply doing their job and not worrying about some protesters? Poor education grades because there is a lack of uniform standards and now fewer teachers, but hey feel good because some states have saved money but firing the very teachers needed to teach and train the next generation..yep amerika is doing well. I digress, the topic is welfare and how you seem to imply that anyone retiring at an early age must be somehow sponging off the system!

[Guest]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

Why does he ignore the outrageous tax avoidance in the troubled countries? Italy's tax avoidance a year is estimated at between $200-230 Billion a year.

The UK only has a debt because the richest avoid paying a penny in tax. If Thatcher has eradicated that we would be the richest country on the planet.

[Verum]

I wonder if Jin Liqun would hold this view if he was forced to clean shithouses for a living.

[Maddog]

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/tal ... 64695.html

Why does he ignore the outrageous tax avoidance in the troubled countries? Italy's tax avoidance a year is estimated at between $200-230 Billion a year.

The UK only has a debt because the richest avoid paying a penny in tax. If Thatcher has eradicated that we would be the richest country on the planet.

Possibly because he does not think that more revenues to governments would help change the idealogy of many of it's citizens. I dont think his premise is that governments having more money would help the problem. Did you read his comments? I think he is talking more about a culture that has developed in Europe, not an accounting shortfall.

[Maddog]

perhaps it is your definition of welfare system that needs clarification. It always seems that most if not all conservatives consider anyone that retired early as being on a benefits programme (welfare) or that wanting a quality health care program for all is tantamount to treason in the eyes of the conservative. One wonders why you and your cohorts feel it necessary to suggest less government intrusion when clearly the states fail to provide on a number of levels. Your failed state laws to protect citizens but lets give them the right to carry concealed weapons so people feel safer How about the police simply doing their job and not worrying about some protesters? Poor education grades because there is a lack of uniform standards and now fewer teachers, but hey feel good because some states have saved money but firing the very teachers needed to teach and train the next generation..yep amerika is doing well. I digress, the topic is welfare and how you seem to imply that anyone retiring at an early age must be somehow sponging off the system!

I don't think I said that Professor.

[Maddog]

I wonder if Jin Liqun would hold this view if he was forced to clean shithouses for a living.

I wonder what the guy who cleans shithouses for living thinks of the guy doing equally as well, doing nothing?

[curious]

perhaps it is your definition of welfare system that needs clarification. It always seems that most if not all conservatives consider anyone that retired early as being on a benefits programme (welfare) or that wanting a quality health care program for all is tantamount to treason in the eyes of the conservative. One wonders why you and your cohorts feel it necessary to suggest less government intrusion when clearly the states fail to provide on a number of levels. Your failed state laws to protect citizens but lets give them the right to carry concealed weapons so people feel safer How about the police simply doing their job and not worrying about some protesters? Poor education grades because there is a lack of uniform standards and now fewer teachers, but hey feel good because some states have saved money but firing the very teachers needed to teach and train the next generation..yep amerika is doing well. I digress, the topic is welfare and how you seem to imply that anyone retiring at an early age must be somehow sponging off the system!

I don't think I said that Professor.

ah yes thats right you didn't have an opinion, just copied the text and agreed with the premise. Still having agreed with the concepts you are by default suggesting that anyone that retires early must be taking advantage of the system. I suppose you would suggest that everyone work until 65 or 75 or some freaking number that doesn't allow anyone that did work an opportunity to enjoy life. Really too bad that you cant kick back and enjoy life.