Euro Death Watch?

[Maddog]

(Reuters) - A "disastrous" German bond sale on Wednesday sparked fears that Europe's debt crisis was starting to threaten even Berlin, with the leaders of the euro zone's two biggest economies still at odds over a longer-term structural solution.

With contagion spreading, a majority of twenty prominent economists polled by Reuters predicted that the euro zone was unlikely to survive the crisis in its current form, with some envisaging a "core" group that would exclude Greece.

Investors were also unnerved by reports that Belgium is leaning on France to pay more into emergency support for failed lender Dexia under a 90-billion-euro ($120-billion) rescue deal that had appeared done and dusted.

A special report by Fitch Ratings suggested France had limited room left to absorb shocks to its finances, such as a new downturn in growth or support for banks, without endangering its triple-A credit status.

"The debt crisis is burrowing ever deeper, like a worm, and is now reaching Germany," one of the more eurosceptic backbenchers in Angela Merkel's center-right government, Frank Schaeffler of the junior coalition partner Free Democrats (FDP), told Reuters.

The German debt agency could not find buyers for almost half a bond sale of 6 billion euros. That pushed the cost of borrowing over 10 years for the bloc's paymaster above those for the United States for the first time since October.

"It is a complete and utter disaster," said Marc Ostwald, strategist at Monument Securities in London.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... VR20111123

[Guest]

So that's why share prices and Euro spot prices are up today in Europe.

Good news

http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Currencies

[Mark]

I wonder which unelected ex goldman sachs / EU stooge Germany will get, when Merkel is deposed & replaced???

it must be either very funny for you guys watching all this shit Maddog, or very scary!


and there was me thinking it would be the Italians that caused the death of the euro

be bloody ironic if its the Germans

[Guest]

good to see the value of the Euro go up this week 0.77%

[Cannydc]

good to see the value of the Euro go up this week 0.77%

Presumably against the US Dollar

Even the North Korean Won is strong against the US $

[spicy]

It can't happen soon enough for me.

Failing the absolute collapse of the EU dream I'd like to see just a few financially solvent countries in it.

[Guest]

good to see the value of the Euro go up this week 0.77%

Presumably against the US Dollar

Even the North Korean Won is strong against the US $

Nope. Against the pound

[Maddog]

The value of the euro is not that important. In fact the Chinese keep the Yuan low on purpose. It aids in their exports. What is important is that the Germans are underwriting the bailouts and now investors/banks are balking at buying more bonds. The idea was to contain the crisis so that it wouldn't spread. That's not working. If Germany can't keep raising cheap money there is no place else to get it from, or the rates will be so high that the Germans will have to bail. If they bail its lights out for the euro.

[Guest]

The value of the euro is not that important. In fact the Chinese keep the Yuan low on purpose. It aids in their exports. What is important is that the Germans are underwriting the bailouts and now investors/banks are balking at buying more bonds. The idea was to contain the crisis so that it wouldn't spread. That's not working. If Germany can't keep raising cheap money there is no place else to get it from, or the rates will be so high that the Germans will have to bail. If they bail its lights out for the euro.

Not necessarily by any stretch of the imagination

[Maddog]

The value of the euro is not that important. In fact the Chinese keep the Yuan low on purpose. It aids in their exports. What is important is that the Germans are underwriting the bailouts and now investors/banks are balking at buying more bonds. The idea was to contain the crisis so that it wouldn't spread. That's not working. If Germany can't keep raising cheap money there is no place else to get it from, or the rates will be so high that the Germans will have to bail. If they bail its lights out for the euro.

Not necessarily by any stretch of the imagination

WTF does that common mean?

[Fletch]

What happened to the US congressional committee and their attempts to stop the same thing happeneing in America then?

A US congressional committee tasked with reducing the deficit by $1.2tn (£762bn) has failed to come to an agreement.

All countries are in the same boat, bankers have soaked the world in debt in order for them to turn virtual money in to real assets.

When the answer to debt is more debt, you know the lunatics have taken over the asylum!

[Maddog]

What happened to the US congressional committee and their attempts to stop the same thing happeneing in America then?

A US congressional committee tasked with reducing the deficit by $1.2tn (£762bn) has failed to come to an agreement.

All countries are in the same boat, bankers have soaked the world in debt in order for them to turn virtual money in to real assets.

When the answer to debt is more debt, you know the lunatics have taken over the asylum!

The good news is, that with the failure of that committee, we are supposed to have automatic, across the board cuts. Seems the politicians cant do their job.

Bankers do not want to soak the world in debt right now. They are not willingly making these loans to countries, because they are scared to death of defaults. The reason banks are making these loans to places like Italy and Greece, is because the French and German Governments are backing their play, with tax payer money. The UK has done a little of this too, but Cameron has the good sense not to expose the UK to complete meltdown, if this goes tits up, which is looking like a very real possibility.

[Fletch]

What happened to the US congressional committee and their attempts to stop the same thing happeneing in America then?

A US congressional committee tasked with reducing the deficit by $1.2tn (£762bn) has failed to come to an agreement.

All countries are in the same boat, bankers have soaked the world in debt in order for them to turn virtual money in to real assets.

When the answer to debt is more debt, you know the lunatics have taken over the asylum!

The good news is, that with the failure of that committee, we are supposed to have automatic, across the board cuts. Seems the politicians cant do their job.

Bankers do not want to soak the world in debt right now. They are not willingly making these loans to countries, because they are scared to death of defaults. The reason banks are making these loans to places like Italy and Greece, is because the French and German Governments are backing their play, with tax payer money. The UK has done a little of this too, but Cameron has the good sense not to expose the UK to complete meltdown, if this goes tits up, which is looking like a very real possibility.

Which is why I said soaked. They've already got countries on the hook and when it come to payback time, you can bet assets will be claimed in lieu of payment.

Debt is what banks do. They create money, lend it out then extinguish the created money once repaid, keeping the interest. They got greedy though and want it all. I personally hope the FIAT money system collapses and we can get back to reality.

[Maddog]

What happened to the US congressional committee and their attempts to stop the same thing happeneing in America then?

A US congressional committee tasked with reducing the deficit by $1.2tn (£762bn) has failed to come to an agreement.

All countries are in the same boat, bankers have soaked the world in debt in order for them to turn virtual money in to real assets.

When the answer to debt is more debt, you know the lunatics have taken over the asylum!

The good news is, that with the failure of that committee, we are supposed to have automatic, across the board cuts. Seems the politicians cant do their job.

Bankers do not want to soak the world in debt right now. They are not willingly making these loans to countries, because they are scared to death of defaults. The reason banks are making these loans to places like Italy and Greece, is because the French and German Governments are backing their play, with tax payer money. The UK has done a little of this too, but Cameron has the good sense not to expose the UK to complete meltdown, if this goes tits up, which is looking like a very real possibility.

Which is why I said soaked. They've already got countries on the hook and when it come to payback time, you can bet assets will be claimed in lieu of payment.

Debt is what banks do. They create money, lend it out then extinguish the created money once repaid, keeping the interest. They got greedy though and want it all. I personally hope the FIAT money system collapses and we can get back to reality.

What assets? Part of the Greek bail out plan was to write off debt to the bondholders. There is no transfer of assets because these loans are not backed by any assets. They are not even backed by the government receiving the loans but by other governments. Of course banks create debt, that is what they do. Debt is a very valuable tool when used correctly. Right now it's not being used correctly, and the banks know it. That's why they won't make these loans unless the governments in their respective countries back their actions. To put is succinctly, the banks are saying these loans are stupid and they don't want to do them, but they are being forced to.

Tell me, if you won the lottery, would you buy Greek or Italian bonds? Would you risk your money on the hope that you would ever see any interest on that investment? I sure as hell wouldn't, unless my government promised me they would bail me out if the bonds never got repaid.

[Fletch]

What assets? Part of the Greek bail out plan was to write off debt to the bondholders. There is no transfer of assets because these loans are not backed by any assets. They are not even backed by the government receiving the loans but by other governments. Of course banks create debt, that is what they do. Debt is a very valuable tool when used correctly. Right now it's not being used correctly, and the banks know it. That's why they won't make these loans unless the governments in their respective countries back their actions. To put is succinctly, the banks are saying these loans are stupid and they don't want to do them, but they are being forced to.

Tell me, if you won the lottery, would you buy Greek or Italian bonds? Would you risk your money on the hope that you would ever see any interest on that investment? I sure as hell wouldn't, unless my government promised me they would bail me out if the bonds never got repaid.

It hasn't collapsed yet. There is already talk of countries being forced to sell off the more lucrative business and companies in public ownership and there have been place-men appointed to ensure banks get what they want. The created 'credits' known as bonds are the side show and the straw being used to break the camels back. Once it collapses watch to see who gets what.