NHS IN CRISIS

Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Stooo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:39 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Stooo wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:
Stooo wrote:
measurer wrote:National Insurance needs to go up and heads at the top need to roll. Monklands is one hospital I wouldn't want to go to, but it is one I can use. True, we dod have a flu epidemic, ( still getting over it 4 weeks later), but nurses' moral is rock bottom, as for the doctors in places like A&E, God help them, for it won't be this government.
The Scots will put up more of a fight though, so Nicola will rely on it to get them through.

The whole thing disgusts me and ALL governments have ruined it, though by far the Tories. It's a cash cow to them, just un-usable tax they can't have.....but they do in other ways. Certainly rising it would definitely help, but I feel it is too corrupted now, Britain needs to make a stance.


The basic rate of tax needs to go up, enough of the bullshit hidden tax that is national insurance, it all goes into the same pot.


Yes, but NI insurance is different when it comes to the State pension and/or benefits.


That's down to how it's allocated after collection. NI is bullshit, lump it in with the general tax and realistically take the poorer out of taxation.



They're already out of it. People who earn between £113 and £157 per weeks don't pay any NI but they're credited with it. They only pay if they earn more than £157 per week. The personal allowance for tax is £11,000 a year.

Paying tax is a fact of life, and I think it would be better for more people to pay it, but at a smaller percentage.


It's red tape bullshit, cut it out.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby measurer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:46 pm

Taxes have been put on us even before governments were formed. It is a fact of life. They just used other names in bygone days, such a Hearth Tax, Horse Tax, etc, etc.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Cannydc » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cannydc wrote:"It's OK for you people who earn loads of money, or those who don't bother to work but get NI credits. I pay enough, and I don't want to pay more."

Nice.

I'm not one of 'you people who earn lots of money"

And I defy you to put a price on returning a sick child to a normal existence, or the curing of a parent with cancer.

Time is short. You may need it sooner than you think. I hope it's still available when your time comes.


If they used the money more efficiently, there would be no need for anyone to pay more. For a start, people with flu should stay at home instead of going to their GP and spreading it around there. You can't cure a virus with medication anyway.


But you can prevent it spreading into really bad lung and bronchial infections. Deadly for the elderly especially.

Also, a small child with flu-like symptoms may have something much worse like meninigitis.

Would you keep your child at home and risk it ?

Just for your interest, we get similar medical outcomes from our NHS to those in America.

And it costs us around half as much. You really want their system ? Go for it. BUPA are waiting for your call. You can pay them 10 times as much as you would by paying a little extra tax along with the rest of us. Good luck - they have profits to make.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:20 pm

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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby wizzywick » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:14 pm

The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Stooo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:23 pm

wizzywick wrote:The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.


I opt out of the contribution. Not all union members are Labour supporters.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby malamute » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:26 pm

And under LABOUR the Welsh NHS results ( as reported on news just now) are the worst EVER.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:28 pm

wizzywick wrote:The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.


Ahh, there you are wizzy :Hiya:

So people in the NHS speak out in support of it because it's a union backed institution?

What do you mean union backed? Is that a bad thing?

Should the NHS be returned to state hands from the CCGs who the Tories gave it to?
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:30 pm

malamute wrote:And under LABOUR the Welsh NHS results ( as reported on news just now) are the worst EVER.


Where does the Welsh NHS get their money from to run it?
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby wizzywick » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:39 pm

Fletch wrote:
wizzywick wrote:The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.


Ahh, there you are wizzy :Hiya:

So people in the NHS speak out in support of it because it's a union backed institution?

What do you mean union backed? Is that a bad thing?

Should the NHS be returned to state hands from the CCGs who the Tories gave it to?


It's a bad thing when it is used for political reasons. People speak out in support of it because we all value it, regardless of politics. But the Unions are currently decrying it. For instance, calling it a "third world health service" is not only derogatory to the thousands of employees working their bollocks off, but also to the tax payer whose contributions ensures the NHS retains its annual flat budget of around £160 billion. Parties like to argue about which one can promise "the biggest amount of extra spending into the NHS" as if it's a shuttlecock, and both main parties are sickeningly pathetic when they do that. I do not know enough about what CCG's are to make a comment on it, but again, both parties are responsible for using private businesses within the NHS, in fact the contractor Jarvis built a few, including one in Berkshire, and they managed them too in the mid 2000's. That's why politics should be removed from it.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby wizzywick » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:42 pm

Stooo wrote:
wizzywick wrote:The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.


I opt out of the contribution. Not all union members are Labour supporters.


Fair point. But Labour supporters are the ones doing all the shouting. What do you think about Drunk Tanks? Would that save the NHS valuable time and money?
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:58 pm

wizzywick wrote:
Fletch wrote:
wizzywick wrote:The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.


Ahh, there you are wizzy :Hiya:

So people in the NHS speak out in support of it because it's a union backed institution?

What do you mean union backed? Is that a bad thing?

Should the NHS be returned to state hands from the CCGs who the Tories gave it to?


It's a bad thing when it is used for political reasons. People speak out in support of it because we all value it, regardless of politics. But the Unions are currently decrying it. For instance, calling it a "third world health service" is not only derogatory to the thousands of employees working their bollocks off, but also to the tax payer whose contributions ensures the NHS retains its annual flat budget of around £160 billion. Parties like to argue about which one can promise "the biggest amount of extra spending into the NHS" as if it's a shuttlecock, and both main parties are sickeningly pathetic when they do that. I do not know enough about what CCG's are to make a comment on it, but again, both parties are responsible for using private businesses within the NHS, in fact the contractor Jarvis built a few, including one in Berkshire, and they managed them too in the mid 2000's. That's why politics should be removed from it.


Lovely speech but you didn't answer the questions I posed. :dunno:

Should the NHS (and control of it) be back in state hands rather than Tories preferred option of CCGs?

CCGs can commission any service provider that meets NHS standards and costs. These can be NHS hospitals, social enterprises, charities or private sector providers. However, they must be assured of the quality of services they commission, taking into account both National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) guidelines and the Care Quality Commission's (CQC) data about service providers.

https://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/ab ... cture.aspx

That's a useful ability isn't it, especially if you want to privatise the NHS...
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Cannydc » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:44 am

wizzywick wrote:
Stooo wrote:
wizzywick wrote:The NHS is Union backed. And which party does the Unions support? You can bet your bottom dollar that if Labour were paying the same amount as the Tories, there would not be this "NHS in Crisis" hysterics - which incidentally, began on 2nd January, the day the Union chiefs went back to work after their long Christmas break. Not a sausage, a murmuring of any NHS stories all through Christmas. Funny that!

For the record though, I think the NHS does need more investment. I'm not pretending it is perfectly fine, because it isn't. But I also think the Government should give it a Royal Commission and take it out of tribal politics. A cross party committee with health experts included in the set up should be responsible for the governance of the NHS. But Labour would never agree to that. And the reason for that is obvious - the NHS is the biggest balloon to pop when it comes to attracting votes in election campaigns.


I opt out of the contribution. Not all union members are Labour supporters.


Fair point. But Labour supporters are the ones doing all the shouting. What do you think about Drunk Tanks? Would that save the NHS valuable time and money?


Like most of the 'good ideas' floating around it fails to address the deliberate underfunding, along with low morale and a very worrying loss of thousands of staff.

Basically down to money.

Under Labour, spending increased by an average 4% annually. Under the Tories 1.8%. The results are obvious, and yes it is deliberate and POLITICAL.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Cannydc » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:53 am

104,987 patients brought to hospitals in England have been stuck inside an ambulance, or in parts of hospitals including corridors, for upwards of half an hour since winter began on Nov 21st.

The eight weeks since then have also seen emergency departments forced to temporarily divert patients to another hospital a total of 188 times.

The largest number of what the NHS calls “A&E diverts” have occurred at Worcestershire acute hospitals NHS trust (39), Gloucestershire hospitals NHS foundation trust (27) and Gateshead health NHS foundation trust (20).

Note - hardly 'inner city' areas with high immigrant populations.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... nce-winter
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Lady Murasaki » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:05 am

Cannydc wrote:104,987 patients brought to hospitals in England have been stuck inside an ambulance, or in parts of hospitals including corridors, for upwards of half an hour since winter began on Nov 21st.

The eight weeks since then have also seen emergency departments forced to temporarily divert patients to another hospital a total of 188 times.

The largest number of what the NHS calls “A&E diverts” have occurred at Worcestershire acute hospitals NHS trust (39), Gloucestershire hospitals NHS foundation trust (27) and Gateshead health NHS foundation trust (20).

Note - hardly 'inner city' areas with high immigrant populations.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... nce-winter


How inconvenient for some posters. :wink:
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