NHS IN CRISIS

Re: NHS Protest

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:23 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Fletch wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Guest wrote:


:grrrrr: I doubt that many on here would have the attention span to watch the lot of it though :wurms:


I doubt a single one of them protesting could tell you either what the problems are, or how to solve them....

And as long as we ignore the underlying issues, the problem will remain, regardless of how much cash you throw at it.


A Tory government. :thumbsup:


See what I mean....

Those who complain without solutions should be ignored. :dafinger:

Doesn't gtet more ridiculous than this


Feel free to offer up a single solution.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:23 pm

Lionel Jesse wrote:
Fletch wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Fletch wrote:As an obvious supporter of private healthcare you are free and welcome to go ahead and rely on private healthcare, just don't try telling the rest of the population to give up their national insurance based healthcare. As for the problems in the NHS, they are created by Tories, and New Labour to an extent, in order to create a market system ready for private takeovers. The NHS should be renationalised by taking it away from private CCG's and returning it to state control. The Tories gave it away, nobody else.

The private provision for public services, privatisation and contracting out racket has run it's course.The wider public have caught on to how inequitable it is, how corrupt and costly it has been. Carillion played a part in the awakening, Care Homes was another, water, utilities, a whole host of others have been revealed as little more than a huge transfer of public cash to private pockets. Not just this country, the west has all began to wake up to it. You're flogging a dead horse Lionel.

:flog:


I support a working NHS. One that works to the best of its ability, and if that means following one of our neighbours programs, then so be it.

The public are the stupidest most clueless people out there. There opinions are formed by the press. If you tell them something, they'll believe it. You can even deny you said something, and they'll still believe it.

See Corbyns election result for an example.

I question how much a person cares about the NHS when they refuse to pay a small fee towards it. Not all that much really.


Everyone already does in the way of tax, including NI and indirect taxes.

Typical Tory attitude, trying to get people to pay twice for the same thing. :shake head:


So obviously its not all that important to you.


How do you come to that conclusion?

The answer is to run the NHS as a service, not as a private money making concern. NHS funding goes to private pockets via the NHS and as in all cases of private provision of public services, the users get a poorer service. Local hospitals shut down and sold to developers for luxury housing, hours of service cut, local walk in centres shut, wards shut, bed shortage because social care funding was cut/removed meaning no through flow of patients. Paying Branson a fortune for not winning a contract, CCG's. The list of parasites on NHS funding is long and growing

Return the NHS in to state hands from private CCG's is a fist step. Removing the ridiculous internal market is another. A Thatcher idea in preparation for future private involvement. Keep smaller hospital open and take back all of Carillions involvement in house, PFI included. They're bust, the contracts are now void.

NHS is a service, sadly Tories do not understand public services, their mentality is someone has to make money out of it somewhere. Preferably a lot. Then they get donations and directorships.

Tories are nothing but a bunch of spivs.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Stooo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby McAz » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:28 pm

Lionel Jesse wrote:Is the graph people?

The people who share this graph and use it to make the claim, fail to mention the fact it covers both public and private.

So naturally, countries like France, who have a publicly funded health service with a private optional insurance service would spend a larger portion of their GDP.

The US, spends 17% on the NHS. Lets hear about how great the US health system is because of it....?


The US is excluded from sensible discussion - one reason that the graph does not reference it

I don't know these people who share the graph but fail to mention it covers public and priavte.

I don't care that France has a private component - we need to spend more on healthcare - simple.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:44 pm

When you say, "users get a poorer service" can you clarify what you mean and when compared to what?

Because the NHS as a healthcare provider is better today, than its probably ever been. The issues are not with the care it provides, but with its ability to provide that care consistently when needed.

I do actually agree with many of your points, though I suspect we differ about the cause and solutions to them.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Stooo wrote:Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.


Its not good enough, but there could be many reasons for it. including a common problem which is the ambulance actually getting through traffic.

I find it odd we have bus lanes but have nothing to help paramedics negotiate some of the more congested routes. I would also like to see fines for those who done move out of the way as soon as its safe. A hefty fine and maybe a point on the licence. Fit all ambulances with cameras, though I expect this is common place.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:56 pm

McAz wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:Is the graph people?

The people who share this graph and use it to make the claim, fail to mention the fact it covers both public and private.

So naturally, countries like France, who have a publicly funded health service with a private optional insurance service would spend a larger portion of their GDP.

The US, spends 17% on the NHS. Lets hear about how great the US health system is because of it....?


The US is excluded from sensible discussion - one reason that the graph does not reference it

I don't know these people who share the graph but fail to mention it covers public and priavte.

I don't care that France has a private component - we need to spend more on healthcare - simple.


The US is excluded because the argument about spending to GDP falls about.

And we do need to spend more. Where we differ is you want to spend more without thinking about it, or maybe its that you want richer people to contribute more despite the fact that these people rarely use the NHS itself. I would prefer a fairer option where people were given the option to purchase insurance, based on the French system, which again, is regularly used to demonstrate how bad the NHS is funded.

I'm proposing a solution which in practice, works brilliantly.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:58 pm

Lionel Jesse wrote:When you say, "users get a poorer service" can you clarify what you mean and when compared to what?

Because the NHS as a healthcare provider is better today, than its probably ever been. The issues are not with the care it provides, but with its ability to provide that care consistently when needed.

I do actually agree with many of your points, though I suspect we differ about the cause and solutions to them.


Poorer as in fewer hospitals, fewer beds, long waits in large corporate friendly hospitals, local healthcare problem such as waits for appointments, out of hours service, local walk in centres gone, hours cut. (tv documentary on it Virgin care was covered)

People having to travel further, wait longer or not receive care at all. Underfunding is a big issue, as said, too many private parasites on the NHS budget and the usual government tomfoolery with statistics doesn't cover up the glaringly obvious. (especially to staff)

Private parasites cherry picking what's profitable, charging the NHS a fortune for it then having the NHS pick up the pieces when it goes wrong is not sustainable. The minute you add layers of profit between the funding and the patient, care has to suffer. All funding should go to running the NHS as a service. Until that happens, it will go the way of dentistry and eye care only with much bigger bills and even death if you're unfortunate.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Stooo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:03 pm

Lionel Jesse wrote:
Stooo wrote:Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.


Its not good enough, but there could be many reasons for it. including a common problem which is the ambulance actually getting through traffic.

I find it odd we have bus lanes but have nothing to help paramedics negotiate some of the more congested routes. I would also like to see fines for those who done move out of the way as soon as its safe. A hefty fine and maybe a point on the licence. Fit all ambulances with cameras, though I expect this is common place.


Traffic is not an issue here at this time of night, I live in a village in the outskirts of a large town, we have buses and everything! The Hospital is around a mile and a half away on main roads.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Fletch » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:14 pm

Stooo wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Stooo wrote:Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.


Its not good enough, but there could be many reasons for it. including a common problem which is the ambulance actually getting through traffic.

I find it odd we have bus lanes but have nothing to help paramedics negotiate some of the more congested routes. I would also like to see fines for those who done move out of the way as soon as its safe. A hefty fine and maybe a point on the licence. Fit all ambulances with cameras, though I expect this is common place.


Traffic is not an issue here at this time of night, I live in a village in the outskirts of a large town, we have buses and everything! The Hospital is around a mile and a half away on main roads.


And likely waiting outside hospitals with patients in the back because there are insufficient beds due to wards being closed and social care funding cut meaning older patients have nowhere to go.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:16 pm

I live in Burnley, so have experienced first hand what closing a hospital can do (Labour closed our A&E incidentally, they didn't have too, but they chose too.) Services were moved to Blackburn, which was heavily renovated (again, Labour decisions and PFI deals). The same labour party that brought in or started much of the privatisation you are against as well.

Burnley could handle the over spill at Blackburn tomorrow. They are fully set up to this day to receive A&E patients. The local Tory party here and in Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) have been campaigning for years to re-open it.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:20 pm

Fletch wrote:
Stooo wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Stooo wrote:Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.


Its not good enough, but there could be many reasons for it. including a common problem which is the ambulance actually getting through traffic.

I find it odd we have bus lanes but have nothing to help paramedics negotiate some of the more congested routes. I would also like to see fines for those who done move out of the way as soon as its safe. A hefty fine and maybe a point on the licence. Fit all ambulances with cameras, though I expect this is common place.


Traffic is not an issue here at this time of night, I live in a village in the outskirts of a large town, we have buses and everything! The Hospital is around a mile and a half away on main roads.


And likely waiting outside hospitals with patients in the back because there are insufficient beds due to wards being closed and social care funding cut meaning older patients have nowhere to go.


I've always wondered why when this happened nobody picks up a phone and calls nearby hospitals. It may surprise some to learn that not all NHS trusts are struggling with these issues. This would be the bit about better management.

I mean, if you're going to be sat for 40 minutes in the back of an ambulance, and the next hospital has room and is say, 20 miles away.... it kind of makes sense to spread the load.
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Lionel Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:21 pm

Stooo wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Stooo wrote:Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.


Its not good enough, but there could be many reasons for it. including a common problem which is the ambulance actually getting through traffic.

I find it odd we have bus lanes but have nothing to help paramedics negotiate some of the more congested routes. I would also like to see fines for those who done move out of the way as soon as its safe. A hefty fine and maybe a point on the licence. Fit all ambulances with cameras, though I expect this is common place.


Traffic is not an issue here at this time of night, I live in a village in the outskirts of a large town, we have buses and everything! The Hospital is around a mile and a half away on main roads.


Buses, plural?

Swanky
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Re: NHS Protest

Postby Stooo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:23 pm

Lionel Jesse wrote:
Stooo wrote:
Lionel Jesse wrote:
Stooo wrote:Case in point:

I literally just went down to my local shop to get some biscuits (gotta love dem chocky shortcakes) and the place is crawling with Old Bill, cars and vans everywhere. I got to the shop and there's a bloke covered up and sparko on the floor, I assumed that it was a homeless person but no. He's jumped out of the window of his flat opposite while being attacked, I'm not sure if he landed on his face or if it was due to the shoeing that he had got.

I live in a high retirement and low immigration area and an ambulance had been called three quarters of an hour ago and had still not arrived.


Its not good enough, but there could be many reasons for it. including a common problem which is the ambulance actually getting through traffic.

I find it odd we have bus lanes but have nothing to help paramedics negotiate some of the more congested routes. I would also like to see fines for those who done move out of the way as soon as its safe. A hefty fine and maybe a point on the licence. Fit all ambulances with cameras, though I expect this is common place.


Traffic is not an issue here at this time of night, I live in a village in the outskirts of a large town, we have buses and everything! The Hospital is around a mile and a half away on main roads.


Buses, plural?

Swanky


Every twenty minutes, I've got a bus stop outside of my house... :again?:
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:35 pm

Doctors should be available 24/7 within the community.
Home visits and drop in centres.
More beds ... the old beds .... should be brought on line.
This would mostly rescue AnE.
The care industry has collapsed in many areas and much of it needs to be taken into public ownership and expanded.
Not spending silly money on a fast railway line that a handful of people will get to use would pay for it.
Yes taxes need to rise to pay for public services.
Please refer to New Labour as separate from Labour.
Tony Blair hijacked the Labour party to such an extent he had to rename it.
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