NHS IN CRISIS

Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Viper » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:53 pm

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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby malamute » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:54 pm

the NHS is the envy of most countries in the world and from personal experience this year I have no complaints. This morning i had to call at our surgery for Xray results and while I was there asked if the nurse had any free appointments and I was seen in 15 minutes - which even shocked me! I got an xray within 2 weeks of the doctor requesting one and have an ultrasound next week.

My mum has had a terrible year and she has been treated with great care, expertise and respect by nurses, doctors, physios, radiographers, OTs, dentists, opticians, and care staff, all on the NHS and they have been wonderful.


Bearing in mind that the UK population has increased by 2.4 Million since the 2011 census i think theyre doing a grand job and anybody who thinks Corbyn could do a better job is sadly deluded.

My Dad died when Labour were in power and his NHS care was vastly inferior to what my Mum has experienced this past year.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Viper » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Red Okktober wrote:
Cannydc wrote:[And I may have misunderstood your stance against immigrants.

I certainly wasn't aware that you were perfectly happy to see young, fit EU migrants coming here to work.

Go to most A+Es, and you will find one group of people outnumber all the others together - they being indigenous elderly people. The same people who bed block, because there's no-one to mind them out of hospital.


I've nothing against skilled immigrants coming here. I've always maintained that around 10-15% of the current immigration figures would be fine. Get rid of the other 85-90%, including all those treated in hospital, and you'll find the NHS would run a lot more smoothly - keeping a similar amount of immigrant doctors and nurses as we already have, but far fewer immigrant patients to treat.

We need to stop unskilled and unemployable immigrants coming in. We also should only allow immediate family to come in with the cherry-picked skilled workers - spouse and kids, and stop these huge extended families coming in that make a fair portion of the NHS patient base.


Many skilled immigrants come here and do menial jobs. So which part of skilled do you mean?
The NHS is struggling because of bad planning and low investment, or investing in the wrong ways.
A cynic would say it's a crafty way of undermining and disempowering the lower classes and making sure they blame the problems on one another/immigrants in your case.

Also, when something is free it isn't appreciated as much. The NHS and education in this country is taken for granted by many.
Eg. People who don't turn up for appointments add to the drain on resources.
They'll realise once it's gone.


Spot on...for wales under labour administration. In England where NHS is under tory control things are better. Still struggling under the burden of immigrants though.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Viper » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:01 pm

malamute wrote:the NHS is the envy of most countries in the world and from personal experience this year I have no complaints. This morning i had to call at our surgery for Xray results and while I was there asked if the nurse had any free appointments and I was seen in 15 minutes - which even shocked me! I got an xray within 2 weeks of the doctor requesting one and have an ultrasound next week.

My mum has had a terrible year and she has been treated with great care, expertise and respect by nurses, doctors, physios, radiographers, OTs, dentists, opticians, and care staff, all on the NHS and they have been wonderful.


Bearing in mind that the UK population has increased by 2.4 Million since the 2011 census i think theyre doing a grand job and anybody who thinks Corbyn could do a better job is sadly deluded.

My Dad died when Labour were in power and his NHS care was vastly inferior to what my Mum has experienced this past year.


Glad to hear you got good service malamute. I think just having a optomistic attitude in life leads to one seeing the good in things.

I have to say i only had cause once last year to use NHS and was pleased with the service.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Lady Murasaki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:31 pm

Viper wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
Red Okktober wrote:
Cannydc wrote:[And I may have misunderstood your stance against immigrants.

I certainly wasn't aware that you were perfectly happy to see young, fit EU migrants coming here to work.

Go to most A+Es, and you will find one group of people outnumber all the others together - they being indigenous elderly people. The same people who bed block, because there's no-one to mind them out of hospital.


I've nothing against skilled immigrants coming here. I've always maintained that around 10-15% of the current immigration figures would be fine. Get rid of the other 85-90%, including all those treated in hospital, and you'll find the NHS would run a lot more smoothly - keeping a similar amount of immigrant doctors and nurses as we already have, but far fewer immigrant patients to treat.

We need to stop unskilled and unemployable immigrants coming in. We also should only allow immediate family to come in with the cherry-picked skilled workers - spouse and kids, and stop these huge extended families coming in that make a fair portion of the NHS patient base.


Many skilled immigrants come here and do menial jobs. So which part of skilled do you mean?
The NHS is struggling because of bad planning and low investment, or investing in the wrong ways.
A cynic would say it's a crafty way of undermining and disempowering the lower classes and making sure they blame the problems on one another/immigrants in your case.

Also, when something is free it isn't appreciated as much. The NHS and education in this country is taken for granted by many.
Eg. People who don't turn up for appointments add to the drain on resources.
They'll realise once it's gone.


Spot on...for wales under labour administration. In England where NHS is under tory control things are better. Still struggling under the burden of immigrants though.


Sigh, this is why it won't get fixed. People like you exist. :bored:
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Viper » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:55 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Viper wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
Red Okktober wrote:
Cannydc wrote:[And I may have misunderstood your stance against immigrants.

I certainly wasn't aware that you were perfectly happy to see young, fit EU migrants coming here to work.

Go to most A+Es, and you will find one group of people outnumber all the others together - they being indigenous elderly people. The same people who bed block, because there's no-one to mind them out of hospital.


I've nothing against skilled immigrants coming here. I've always maintained that around 10-15% of the current immigration figures would be fine. Get rid of the other 85-90%, including all those treated in hospital, and you'll find the NHS would run a lot more smoothly - keeping a similar amount of immigrant doctors and nurses as we already have, but far fewer immigrant patients to treat.

We need to stop unskilled and unemployable immigrants coming in. We also should only allow immediate family to come in with the cherry-picked skilled workers - spouse and kids, and stop these huge extended families coming in that make a fair portion of the NHS patient base.


Many skilled immigrants come here and do menial jobs. So which part of skilled do you mean?
The NHS is struggling because of bad planning and low investment, or investing in the wrong ways.
A cynic would say it's a crafty way of undermining and disempowering the lower classes and making sure they blame the problems on one another/immigrants in your case.

Also, when something is free it isn't appreciated as much. The NHS and education in this country is taken for granted by many.
Eg. People who don't turn up for appointments add to the drain on resources.
They'll realise once it's gone.


Spot on...for wales under labour administration. In England where NHS is under tory control things are better. Still struggling under the burden of immigrants though.


Sigh, this is why it won't get fixed. People like you exist. :bored:


As the evidence demonstrably shows people like me (conservative) are the ones who DO fix the NHS. The labour run example in Wales (higher per head funding) is worse and shows the type of people who cant fix it. :thumbsup:
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Avon Barksdale » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:56 pm

While some parts of the NHS which deal with primary care are OK most of it is not fit for purpose. Social care is abysmal.

We need to stop romanticising it. It's mostly a substandard service. It has manifold structural problems and because it is such an emotive issue no politician will seriously tackle its issues (both funding and organistational.)

It's probably OK if you don't have to rely on it. If you do then you could be literally gambling with your life. If you can afford private healthcare then take it out because I cannot see it meaningfully improve in the foreseeable future.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:07 pm

Viper wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:Sigh, this is why it won't get fixed. People like you exist. :bored:


As the evidence demonstrably shows people like me (conservative) are the ones who DO fix the NHS. The labour run example in Wales (higher per head funding) is worse and shows the type of people who cant fix it. :thumbsup:


Where? :dunno:
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:10 pm

malamute wrote:the NHS is the envy of most countries in the world and from personal experience this year I have no complaints. This morning i had to call at our surgery for Xray results and while I was there asked if the nurse had any free appointments and I was seen in 15 minutes - which even shocked me! I got an xray within 2 weeks of the doctor requesting one and have an ultrasound next week.

My mum has had a terrible year and she has been treated with great care, expertise and respect by nurses, doctors, physios, radiographers, OTs, dentists, opticians, and care staff, all on the NHS and they have been wonderful.


Bearing in mind that the UK population has increased by 2.4 Million since the 2011 census i think theyre doing a grand job and anybody who thinks Corbyn could do a better job is sadly deluded.

My Dad died when Labour were in power and his NHS care was vastly inferior to what my Mum has experienced this past year.


How come, once again, you seem to be the exception to the rule?

How was the service inferior for your Dad compared to your Mum this year?

(sadly people do die, it's a fact of life. condolences for your loss)
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:19 pm

Avon Barksdale wrote:While some parts of the NHS which deal with primary care are OK most of it is not fit for purpose. Social care is abysmal.

We need to stop romanticising it. It's mostly a substandard service. It has manifold structural problems and because it is such an emotive issue no politician will seriously tackle its issues (both funding and organistational.)

It's probably OK if you don't have to rely on it. If you do then you could be literally gambling with your life. If you can afford private healthcare then take it out because I cannot see it meaningfully improve in the foreseeable future.


Bollocks.

If the NHS was treated as a public service rather than a way for corporate types to make money, it would be able to cope. It's deliberate underfunding, changes (for the benefit of making money in future if not now) and selling off of established Hospitals for redevelopment that is causing the problems. Fewer places for more people to go to is always going to cause problems. We, as a country, spend far less on health than other nations yet expect things to be better, or even improve by not keeping up with the population increase? :off head:

I'm afraid neo liberals like you Avon only ever see individuals paying more as the answer. Private health insurance all the way eh? Look at America to see how that works out. (yes we follow the US rather than Europe, always have done)

(See my debt slaves thread)
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Avon Barksdale » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:31 pm

Fletch wrote:
Avon Barksdale wrote:While some parts of the NHS which deal with primary care are OK most of it is not fit for purpose. Social care is abysmal.

We need to stop romanticising it. It's mostly a substandard service. It has manifold structural problems and because it is such an emotive issue no politician will seriously tackle its issues (both funding and organistational.)

It's probably OK if you don't have to rely on it. If you do then you could be literally gambling with your life. If you can afford private healthcare then take it out because I cannot see it meaningfully improve in the foreseeable future.


Bollocks.

If the NHS was treated as a public service rather than a way for corporate types to make money, it would be able to cope. It's deliberate underfunding, changes (for the benefit of making money in future if not now) and selling off of established Hospitals for redevelopment that is causing the problems. Fewer places for more people to go to is always going to cause problems. We, as a country, spend far less on health than other nations yet expect things to be better, or even improve by not keeping up with the population increase? :off head:

I'm afraid neo liberals like you Avon only ever see individuals paying more as the answer. Private health insurance all the way eh? Look at America to see how that works out. (yes we follow the US rather than Europe, always have done)

(See my debt slaves thread)


This is a prime example of what I am talking about. An inability to see what is staring people in the face because of ideology which leads to empty posturing.

A number of NHS trusts have significantly higher mortality rates than acceptable. It's a matter or public record. You might want to gamble on those odds but I don't and I don't want that for my family either.

I didn't posit a solution to the NHS because I don't have one or expect to see it improve in the foreseeable future because there is no real political will on either side to really do so. I am making rational choices in the face of the evidence I see on an individual level.

And stop tossing out the term "neo liberal" like confetti. It really adds nothing to your argument.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Fletch » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:57 pm

Avon Barksdale wrote:
Fletch wrote:
Avon Barksdale wrote:While some parts of the NHS which deal with primary care are OK most of it is not fit for purpose. Social care is abysmal.

We need to stop romanticising it. It's mostly a substandard service. It has manifold structural problems and because it is such an emotive issue no politician will seriously tackle its issues (both funding and organistational.)

It's probably OK if you don't have to rely on it. If you do then you could be literally gambling with your life. If you can afford private healthcare then take it out because I cannot see it meaningfully improve in the foreseeable future.


Bollocks.

If the NHS was treated as a public service rather than a way for corporate types to make money, it would be able to cope. It's deliberate underfunding, changes (for the benefit of making money in future if not now) and selling off of established Hospitals for redevelopment that is causing the problems. Fewer places for more people to go to is always going to cause problems. We, as a country, spend far less on health than other nations yet expect things to be better, or even improve by not keeping up with the population increase? :off head:

I'm afraid neo liberals like you Avon only ever see individuals paying more as the answer. Private health insurance all the way eh? Look at America to see how that works out. (yes we follow the US rather than Europe, always have done)

(See my debt slaves thread)


This is a prime example of what I am talking about. An inability to see what is staring people in the face because of ideology which leads to empty posturing.

A number of NHS trusts have significantly higher mortality rates than acceptable. It's a matter or public record. You might want to gamble on those odds but I don't and I don't want that for my family either.

I didn't posit a solution to the NHS because I don't have one or expect to see it improve in the foreseeable future because there is no real political will on either side to really do so. I am making rational choices in the face of the evidence I see on an individual level.

And stop tossing out the term "neo liberal" like confetti. It really adds nothing to your argument.


And it all comes down to treating the NHS as a vehicle to enrich the few rather than a genuine public service for the benefit of society.

The term neo liberal is the exact reason the above happens. Started under Mrs T, continued by New Labour and again further advanced by the Tories since. It's a system you support, what do expect me to call it? Maybe Reagonomics or tickle down supporter? It's all the same ideology we've been subjected to for 40 odd years.They even try calling it 'centrist politics' It's not,it's propaganda to make the many feel safe 'in the middle', not those 'extremists' who reject such policies like current Labour. See how it works?
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Cannydc » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Viper wrote:


As the evidence demonstrably shows people like me (conservative) are the ones who DO fix the NHS. The labour run example in Wales (higher per head funding) is worse and shows the type of people who cant fix it. :thumbsup:[/quote]

Possibly the most risible comment I have read on here.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Viper » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:04 pm

Cannydc wrote:
Viper wrote:


As the evidence demonstrably shows people like me (conservative) are the ones who DO fix the NHS. The labour run example in Wales (higher per head funding) is worse and shows the type of people who cant fix it. :thumbsup:


Possibly the most risible comment I have read on here.[/quote]

Well we know you find fact based discussion difficult to deal with. Its not cause for me to stop though im afraid.
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Re: NHS IN CRISIS

Postby Cannydc » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:12 pm

Viper wrote:
Cannydc wrote:
Viper wrote:


As the evidence demonstrably shows people like me (conservative) are the ones who DO fix the NHS. The labour run example in Wales (higher per head funding) is worse and shows the type of people who cant fix it. :thumbsup:


Possibly the most risible comment I have read on here.


Well we know you find fact based discussion difficult to deal with. Its not cause for me to stop though im afraid.[/quote]

Jog on, Troll.
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