The UK cannot "run out of money"

The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:57 am

Continued from our discussion in the DS & DTV Thread.

The UK owning a sovereign currency, cannot "run out of money". This is a lie.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby MungoBrush » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:59 am

Gigabit wrote:Continued from our discussion in the DS & DTV Thread.

The UK owning a sovereign currency, cannot "run out of money". This is a lie.


Were you advising the board of Carrillion which "drowned in a sea of debt"
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:01 pm

MungoBrush wrote:
Gigabit wrote:Continued from our discussion in the DS & DTV Thread.

The UK owning a sovereign currency, cannot "run out of money". This is a lie.


Were you advising the board of Carrillion which "drowned in a sea of debt"


They're a private-sector organisation. Completely different to the UK Government having a bank of its own.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Cannydc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:18 pm

It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:21 pm

Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Cannydc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:31 pm

Gigabit wrote:
Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.


Spot on.

If we had retained the 3% growth that Labour left the Tories by investing in our own growth we would have cleared our deficit (not national debt, note) years ago. Instead, Osborne killed growth stone dead, reducing tax take and thus forcing further cuts just to stand still. Austerity was a proven failure, it killed the Japanese economy for decades. USA did exactly what we should have done (and Brown wanted to do) and blasted out of recession much quicker.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:52 pm

Cannydc wrote:
Gigabit wrote:
Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.


Spot on.

If we had retained the 3% growth that Labour left the Tories by investing in our own growth we would have cleared our deficit (not national debt, note) years ago. Instead, Osborne killed growth stone dead, reducing tax take and thus forcing further cuts just to stand still. Austerity was a proven failure, it killed the Japanese economy for decades. USA did exactly what we should have done (and Brown wanted to do) and blasted out of recession much quicker.


It is only when Osborne reduced the level of his cuts and the Tories started increasing public spending in real terms of ~1%, that some growth started to return. Sadly, he didn't undo the changes he'd made to welfare or the NHS. But we know austerity was just Tories reducing the size of the state, nothing to do with economics.

I always ask Tories to find me an economist to back up their claims. I never get one but instead the usual "but what about Labour hmmm? What about the gold Brown sold off?".

We really need to get away from this idea that the only option for the UK is some form of neoliberalism. Alternative ideologies exist (see Germany and Norway for two alternatives) and yet when a leader proposes one, he's ridiculed. Why do we want to shut down economic debate like this? Keynes would have listened to those from the neoliberal side even if he didn't agree, he'd see it as sensible to have a debate. But not so in Tory Britain!
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby MungoBrush » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:53 pm

Cannydc wrote:
Gigabit wrote:
Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.


Spot on.

If we had retained the 3% growth that Labour left the Tories by investing in our own growth we would have cleared our deficit (not national debt, note) years ago. Instead, Osborne killed growth stone dead, reducing tax take and thus forcing further cuts just to stand still. Austerity was a proven failure, it killed the Japanese economy for decades. USA did exactly what we should have done (and Brown wanted to do) and blasted out of recession much quicker.


Trouble is - it's bollocks

Countries - like any organisation or individual - has a credit rating
UK's was recently downgraded to Aa2 because we are still borrowing too much.

People who hink that the UK can borrow to its heart's content will be driving the country to the bottom.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:57 pm

MungoBrush wrote:
Cannydc wrote:
Gigabit wrote:
Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.


Spot on.

If we had retained the 3% growth that Labour left the Tories by investing in our own growth we would have cleared our deficit (not national debt, note) years ago. Instead, Osborne killed growth stone dead, reducing tax take and thus forcing further cuts just to stand still. Austerity was a proven failure, it killed the Japanese economy for decades. USA did exactly what we should have done (and Brown wanted to do) and blasted out of recession much quicker.


Trouble is - it's bollocks

Countries - like any organisation or individual - has a credit rating
UK's was recently downgraded to Aa2 because we are still borrowing too much.

People who hink that the UK can borrow to its heart's content will be driving the country to the bottom.


You literally couldn't be more wrong though. The UK borrowing from itself has no impact on its credit rating, unless we choose to rate ourselves.

Also, if money like this doesn't just appear (I know it doesn't literally appear but the impacts are the same), how come Osborne just wrote off several Billions of our own debt?
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Cannydc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:06 pm

MungoBrush wrote:
Cannydc wrote:
Gigabit wrote:
Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.


Spot on.

If we had retained the 3% growth that Labour left the Tories by investing in our own growth we would have cleared our deficit (not national debt, note) years ago. Instead, Osborne killed growth stone dead, reducing tax take and thus forcing further cuts just to stand still. Austerity was a proven failure, it killed the Japanese economy for decades. USA did exactly what we should have done (and Brown wanted to do) and blasted out of recession much quicker.


Trouble is - it's bollocks

Countries - like any organisation or individual - has a credit rating
UK's was recently downgraded to Aa2 because we are still borrowing too much.

People who hink that the UK can borrow to its heart's content will be driving the country to the bottom.


And the Tory mis-direction knows no bounds.

The credit rating was slashed as a direct result of Osborne's failed austerity policies but more especially Brexit uncertainty. Another Tory manufactured omnishambles.

https://www.ft.com/content/3ecfa8f2-9fd ... 2067fbf946
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby MungoBrush » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:09 pm

Gigabit wrote:
MungoBrush wrote:
Cannydc wrote:
Gigabit wrote:
Cannydc wrote:It's a technicality.

The government always has the option of borrowing via their own bonds - effectively printing money.

While other countries are happy to lend by buying them the borrowing can continue. The rate of interest on these bonds is raised when interest wanes.

The sad thing is, we had the chance to repair our infrastructure (roads, schools, NHS) by borrowing at rock bottom rates and employing well paid tax-paying Brits in the process. Investing in our country. That chance is now fading, as the holes in the road grow deeper.


Great post, thanks.

I recall Corbyn proposing similar during his leadership election and was smeared by those so-called "experts" at the DM and co.

What we need is a national investment bank. Print the money, spend it directly on infrastructure. No chance of inflation as the money doesn't go into the general money supply via a traditional bank. Why don't we do this? This seems to be neither a left nor right thing, just seems bizarre we don't do it.


Spot on.

If we had retained the 3% growth that Labour left the Tories by investing in our own growth we would have cleared our deficit (not national debt, note) years ago. Instead, Osborne killed growth stone dead, reducing tax take and thus forcing further cuts just to stand still. Austerity was a proven failure, it killed the Japanese economy for decades. USA did exactly what we should have done (and Brown wanted to do) and blasted out of recession much quicker.


Trouble is - it's bollocks

Countries - like any organisation or individual - has a credit rating
UK's was recently downgraded to Aa2 because we are still borrowing too much.

People who hink that the UK can borrow to its heart's content will be driving the country to the bottom.


You literally couldn't be more wrong though. The UK borrowing from itself has no impact on its credit rating, unless we choose to rate ourselves.

Also, if money like this doesn't just appear (I know it doesn't literally appear but the impacts are the same), how come Osborne just wrote off several Billions of our own debt?


Your O-level economics doesn't cut it in the real world Gigabit.
You should take the advice of senior economics experts.
People who have lectured at University in Financial Economic, for example.
People like me.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:11 pm

MungoBrush wrote:Your O-level economics doesn't cut it in the real world Gigabit.
You should take the advice of senior economics experts.
People who have lectured at University in Financial Economic, for example.
People like me.


If you don't understand the UK can't print its own money via a Central Bank, frankly you are unqualified to be lecturing on financial economics.
Last edited by Gigabit on Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Cannydc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:12 pm

A reminder - when a business wants to invest to upgrade it's infrastructure, it goes to the bank and borrows.

As recommended even (especially) by Tories.

When the country wants to increase growth by investing to upgrade it's infrastructure as a means of reducing the deficit, according to the same people, the last thing we should do is borrow.

The idiocy of these two positions beggars belief.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby Gigabit » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:15 pm

Cannydc wrote:A reminder - when a business wants to invest to upgrade it's infrastructure, it goes to the bank and borrows.

As recommended even (especially) by Tories.

When the country wants to increase growth by investing to upgrade it's infrastructure as a means of reducing the deficit, according to the same people, the last thing we should do is borrow.

The idiocy of these two positions beggars belief.


As I have discovered over the last few years, the Tory reality distortion field knows no bounds. I know, because I used to believe it. It is the hardest thing to accept that what the right-wing media tells you isn't true but when you do, it all comes crashing down.

We know the Tories' economic agenda makes no sense - refer back to previous comment re supporting economists - and the real purpose is to re-estabilish the class system.
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Re: The UK cannot "run out of money"

Postby MungoBrush » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:32 pm

Gigabit wrote:
MungoBrush wrote:Your O-level economics doesn't cut it in the real world Gigabit.
You should take the advice of senior economics experts.
People who have lectured at University in Financial Economic, for example.
People like me.


If you don't understand the UK can't print its own money via a Central Bank, frankly you are unqualified to be lecturing on financial economics.


Might I suggest that you first take a course on Capital Market Theory before you post your next load of cods?
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