East Coast train line under public control

[Rolluplostinspace]

As soon as I hear "Brown sold a shitload of our gold" I know exactly what I am dealing with.

Actually Brown sold about 395 tons of gold over 17 auctions from July 1999 to March 2002, at an average price of about US$275 per ounce, raising approximately US$3.5 billion.

$3.5 billion. Don't miss the decimal point.

To put that in context, HS2 alone is expected to cost thirty times that. May's annual deficit is running at twenty times that. Not only was it the veritable spit in the bucket, but it also gave us Euro assets which quickly rose in value.

And I repeat, Blair and Brown were forced to prioritise spending on an infrastructure devastated from 1979 - 1997.

Infrastructure devastated. I don't think so.

I'll presume you are to young to remember the Thatcher years where schools had their funding cut to such a degree parents were having to supply books chalk paper pens pencils crayons.
That classrooms started having rain pouring in through the roofs heating systems failing because of lack of maintenance. This went on to the point that instead of repairing and maintaining stuff porta cabins were bought in and placed in playgrounds and on sports fields ... many of which got sold off to raise money.
Hospitals had lines of buckets down corridors to catch the rain coming through the roofs.
Police numbers were decimated social housing was decimated libraries and parks went without maintenance and some parks had to be closed because rust was causing sharp edges and stength issues. Roads and bridges were being left crumble. Homelessness rocketed.
That's what Canny is referring to re infrastructure collapse.
Same old story loot the economy rob the people.
So many of you seem not to get it but that's the reality everytime the Tories come into office.
New Labour had a mammoth task on its hands and selling scrap metal that was sitting there doing nothing came in very handy.

[jra]

As soon as I hear "Brown sold a shitload of our gold" I know exactly what I am dealing with.

Actually Brown sold about 395 tons of gold over 17 auctions from July 1999 to March 2002, at an average price of about US$275 per ounce, raising approximately US$3.5 billion.

$3.5 billion. Don't miss the decimal point.

To put that in context, HS2 alone is expected to cost thirty times that. May's annual deficit is running at twenty times that. Not only was it the veritable spit in the bucket, but it also gave us Euro assets which quickly rose in value.

And I repeat, Blair and Brown were forced to prioritise spending on an infrastructure devastated from 1979 - 1997.

Infrastructure devastated. I don't think so.

I'll presume you are to young to remember the Thatcher years where schools had their funding cut to such a degree parents were having to supply books chalk paper pens pencils crayons.
That classrooms started having rain pouring in through the roofs heating systems failing because of lack of maintenance. This went on to the point that instead of repairing and maintaining stuff porta cabins were bought in and placed in playgrounds and on sports fields ... many of which got sold off to raise money.
Hospitals had lines of buckets down corridors to catch the rain coming through the roofs.
Police numbers were decimated social housing was decimated libraries and parks went without maintenance and some parks had to be closed because rust was causing sharp edges and stength issues. Roads and bridges were being left crumble. Homelessness rocketed.
That's what Canny is referring to re infrastructure collapse.
Same old story loot the economy rob the people.
So many of you seem not to get it but that's the reality everytime the Tories come into office.
New Labour had a mammoth task on its hands and selling scrap metal that was sitting there doing nothing came in very handy.

This is a thread about the railways essentially. So when 'infrastructure devastated' is mentioned it wouldn't be unnatural to assume they were talking about the railways, not general failures.

[Cannydc]

As soon as I hear "Brown sold a shitload of our gold" I know exactly what I am dealing with.

Actually Brown sold about 395 tons of gold over 17 auctions from July 1999 to March 2002, at an average price of about US$275 per ounce, raising approximately US$3.5 billion.

$3.5 billion. Don't miss the decimal point.

To put that in context, HS2 alone is expected to cost thirty times that. May's annual deficit is running at twenty times that. Not only was it the veritable spit in the bucket, but it also gave us Euro assets which quickly rose in value.

And I repeat, Blair and Brown were forced to prioritise spending on an infrastructure devastated from 1979 - 1997.

Infrastructure devastated. I don't think so. That had already been done under the Conservatives and Labour.

It's not the cost of the gold sale versus HS2. It is about the fact the gold was sold well under market value compared with historical values.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_U ... %80%932002

Labour have under-invested in our railways over the last few decades just like the Conservatives.

I'm sorry you don't think so.

Rollup has already pointed out the realities.

By 1995, whole areas of Britain, especially in the north, had water shortages, having nothing to do with weather. In summer 1995, despite adequate rainfall, reservoirs were empty; in some areas, water had to be trucked in to consumers, at exorbitant costs. The winter of 1995-96 saw pipes burst, because of lack of replacement and upgrade, all over northern England, parts of Scotland, and Wales. Thousands of households had no water.

Thatcherite "reforms" de facto ended the National Health Care System, removed resources, and mandated 500 separate Hospital Trusts to "compete for efficiency." Emergency hospital admissions rose by 13% over four years. But, from 1991-95, some 9,000 acute-care beds were lost, 7% of the total. Patients turned away; emergency units closed. In 1995, emergency admissions rose by more than 6%, but funding for emergency work had been cut by 1-2%.

Electricity became more expensive and unreliable. In real terms, user prices rose each year until 1993.

As the physical economy was being looted , record profits were being posted by "public" utilities now owned privately. Some examples: Southern Water is posting, for 1995, a 15.5% jump in pre-tax profits (to£165.6 million) and a 22% jump in dividends.

Among the new power companies, the average dividend per share jumped by 82% between April 1991 and April 1995. National Power shareholders' dividends were up by 45% since it began; directors are all gettingshare options, bonuses, and pay hikes. (National power accounted for 25% of all electric generation.)

These privateering rates came from drastic cuts in workforce and investment. In the electricity sector, the workforce was cut from 144,000 down to 85,000. National Power cut its workforce from 16,000 to 4,700. In the north of England, the new private water companies cut the workforce by half.

In 1995 alone, capital spending on infrastructure maintenance and modernization fell by nearly a fifth, in real terms, in the gas, electricity, and water sectors-now mostly all privatized.
This followed declines in capital spending of 5% in 1993, and 13% in 1994.

Even the most vital public health measures were cut, such as rat control. One water company cut annual spending on vermin control by 40%, compared to the pre-privatization level. Another no longer took preventive measures, but only responded to individual complaints. Yorkshire Water cut its rat-baiting budget every year, but increased its dividend to shareholders.

There was a revolving door between high Thatcher government officials involved in shaping deals, and plum positions in the newly privatized industry. Peter Walker, Thatcher's agriculture minister, who supervised the deregulation of animal feed standards (1979-83), was energy secretary from 1983 to 1987, during which time British Gas was privatized. In 1990, Walker, within one month of resigning from the cabinet, joined the board of the U.K.'s major livestock feed company, Dalgety PLC, and became a director of the privatized British Gas Corp.

[Cannydc]

"It is about the fact the gold was sold well under market value compared with historical values."

Inaccurate - the price of gold had barely changed for over 20 years. The only time it peaked was during wars, and it only went up later because big banks signed an agreement to limit sales, pushing up prices.

The point is, the sale only raised $3.5bn, a tiny amount in reality compared to GDP. The sale has been endlessly hyped by the Tories ever since, in truth it wasn't a big deal.

[jra]

As soon as I hear "Brown sold a shitload of our gold" I know exactly what I am dealing with.

Actually Brown sold about 395 tons of gold over 17 auctions from July 1999 to March 2002, at an average price of about US$275 per ounce, raising approximately US$3.5 billion.

$3.5 billion. Don't miss the decimal point.

To put that in context, HS2 alone is expected to cost thirty times that. May's annual deficit is running at twenty times that. Not only was it the veritable spit in the bucket, but it also gave us Euro assets which quickly rose in value.

And I repeat, Blair and Brown were forced to prioritise spending on an infrastructure devastated from 1979 - 1997.

Infrastructure devastated. I don't think so. That had already been done under the Conservatives and Labour.

It's not the cost of the gold sale versus HS2. It is about the fact the gold was sold well under market value compared with historical values.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_U ... %80%932002

Labour have under-invested in our railways over the last few decades just like the Conservatives.

I'm sorry you don't think so.

Rollup has already pointed out the realities.

By 1995, whole areas of Britain, especially in the north, had water shortages, having nothing to do with weather. In summer 1995, despite adequate rainfall, reservoirs were empty; in some areas, water had to be trucked in to consumers, at exorbitant costs. The winter of 1995-96 saw pipes burst, because of lack of replacement and upgrade, all over northern England, parts of Scotland, and Wales. Thousands of households had no water.

Thatcherite "reforms" de facto ended the National Health Care System, removed resources, and mandated 500 separate Hospital Trusts to "compete for efficiency." Emergency hospital admissions rose by 13% over four years. But, from 1991-95, some 9,000 acute-care beds were lost, 7% of the total. Patients turned away; emergency units closed. In 1995, emergency admissions rose by more than 6%, but funding for emergency work had been cut by 1-2%.

Electricity became more expensive and unreliable. In real terms, user prices rose each year until 1993.

As the physical economy was being looted , record profits were being posted by "public" utilities now owned privately. Some examples: Southern Water is posting, for 1995, a 15.5% jump in pre-tax profits (to£165.6 million) and a 22% jump in dividends.

Among the new power companies, the average dividend per share jumped by 82% between April 1991 and April 1995. National Power shareholders' dividends were up by 45% since it began; directors are all gettingshare options, bonuses, and pay hikes. (National power accounted for 25% of all electric generation.)

These privateering rates came from drastic cuts in workforce and investment. In the electricity sector, the workforce was cut from 144,000 down to 85,000. National Power cut its workforce from 16,000 to 4,700. In the north of England, the new private water companies cut the workforce by half.

In 1995 alone, capital spending on infrastructure maintenance and modernization fell by nearly a fifth, in real terms, in the gas, electricity, and water sectors-now mostly all privatized.
This followed declines in capital spending of 5% in 1993, and 13% in 1994.

Even the most vital public health measures were cut, such as rat control. One water company cut annual spending on vermin control by 40%, compared to the pre-privatization level. Another no longer took preventive measures, but only responded to individual complaints. Yorkshire Water cut its rat-baiting budget every year, but increased its dividend to shareholders.

There was a revolving door between high Thatcher government officials involved in shaping deals, and plum positions in the newly privatized industry. Peter Walker, Thatcher's agriculture minister, who supervised the deregulation of animal feed standards (1979-83), was energy secretary from 1983 to 1987, during which time British Gas was privatized. In 1990, Walker, within one month of resigning from the cabinet, joined the board of the U.K.'s major livestock feed company, Dalgety PLC, and became a director of the privatized British Gas Corp.

Railway thread anybody?

[jra]

"It is about the fact the gold was sold well under market value compared with historical values."

Inaccurate - the price of gold had barely changed for over 20 years. The only time it peaked was during wars, and it only went up later because big banks signed an agreement to limit sales, pushing up prices.

The point is, the sale only raised $3.5bn, a tiny amount in reality compared to GDP. The sale has been endlessly hyped by the Tories ever since, in truth it wasn't a big deal.

Forget I mentioned gold. I didn't want a big debate about it. It was an off the cuff comment.

Stick to railways, not the general economy past and present. You might even use the term de-railing the thread big time.

Back on topic maybe.

[Rolluplostinspace]

"It is about the fact the gold was sold well under market value compared with historical values."

Inaccurate - the price of gold had barely changed for over 20 years. The only time it peaked was during wars, and it only went up later because big banks signed an agreement to limit sales, pushing up prices.

The point is, the sale only raised $3.5bn, a tiny amount in reality compared to GDP. The sale has been endlessly hyped by the Tories ever since, in truth it wasn't a big deal.

Forget I mentioned gold. I didn't want a big debate about it. It was an off the cuff comment.

Stick to railways, not the general economy past and present. You might even use the term de-railing the thread big time.

Back on topic maybe.

I'm now beginning to see why others are often calling you fucking humorless and clueless.
This is called conversation.
You know conversations can of move around a little yes or are you a fucking algorithm?

[jra]

"It is about the fact the gold was sold well under market value compared with historical values."

Inaccurate - the price of gold had barely changed for over 20 years. The only time it peaked was during wars, and it only went up later because big banks signed an agreement to limit sales, pushing up prices.

The point is, the sale only raised $3.5bn, a tiny amount in reality compared to GDP. The sale has been endlessly hyped by the Tories ever since, in truth it wasn't a big deal.

Forget I mentioned gold. I didn't want a big debate about it. It was an off the cuff comment.

Stick to railways, not the general economy past and present. You might even use the term de-railing the thread big time.

Back on topic maybe.

I'm now beginning to see why others are often calling you fucking humorless and clueless.
This is called conversation.
You know conversations can of move around a little yes or are you a fucking algorithm?

What's humour got to do with this (just throw me a bone here) and BIB this isn't a trolling thread. Attack the post not the poster. And I'm not clueless regarding the railways, but I'm happy for you to believe that because I'm going down the road (or railway should I say) that says about your opinion. Clueless people don't get degrees for example.

I don't mind having the conversation, but in the right thread.

Alright.

[Rolluplostinspace]

Another one with a degree!

[jra]

Another one with a degree!

At a time when it meant something, like only about 1 in 20 people got the chance.

[Punk]

Another one with a degree!

At a time when it meant something, like only about 1 in 20 people got the chance.

It depends what the degree was in. For analytical stuff only a History degree at a top Uni fits the bill.

[Rolluplostinspace]

I had a phd but I doubt that counts.

[jra]

This is how we don't get things done in the UK.

Alliance re-applied for paths with former Virgin Trains East Coast InterCity 225 sets to commence operating from September 2019. As these will not able to tilt, their speed would be restricted to 110mph. Due to the lower speed, the revised service would only call at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham and Poulton-le-Fylde.[14][15]

Mark IV carriages have a tilting profile for 140 mph running, but the tilting equipment has been removed as per operations on the ECML.

Embarrassing. So, we could have 140/125 mph tilting trains (that's they were designed for) on the GNWR, but no, we'll have 110 mph non tilting trains.

Retrograde step or what.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Nor ... rn_Railway

[Cannydc]

This is how we don't get things done in the UK.

Alliance re-applied for paths with former Virgin Trains East Coast InterCity 225 sets to commence operating from September 2019. As these will not able to tilt, their speed would be restricted to 110mph. Due to the lower speed, the revised service would only call at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham and Poulton-le-Fylde.[14][15]

Mark IV carriages have a tilting profile for 140 mph running, but the tilting equipment has been removed as per operations on the ECML.

Embarrassing. So, we could have 140/125 mph tilting trains (that's they were designed for) on the GNWR, but no, we'll have 110 mph non tilting trains.

Retrograde step or what.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Nor ... rn_Railway

As I remember, tilting trains caused an onset of motion sickness never seen before on our railways.

Given the difficulty even finding a vacant toilet on trains, I can just imagine a sick bag horror show, and if kids are involved forget the bag !!

(May I just say, if you mention stuff like 'Labour sold all the gold and didn't invest in railways' please expect replies. It's what happens on forums)

[jra]

This is how we don't get things done in the UK.

Alliance re-applied for paths with former Virgin Trains East Coast InterCity 225 sets to commence operating from September 2019. As these will not able to tilt, their speed would be restricted to 110mph. Due to the lower speed, the revised service would only call at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham and Poulton-le-Fylde.[14][15]

Mark IV carriages have a tilting profile for 140 mph running, but the tilting equipment has been removed as per operations on the ECML.

Embarrassing. So, we could have 140/125 mph tilting trains (that's they were designed for) on the GNWR, but no, we'll have 110 mph non tilting trains.

Retrograde step or what.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Nor ... rn_Railway

As I remember, tilting trains caused an onset of motion sickness never seen before on our railways.

Given the difficulty even finding a vacant toilet on trains, I can just imagine a sick bag horror show, and if kids are involved forget the bag !!

(May I just say, if you mention stuff like 'Labour sold all the gold and didn't invest in railways' please expect replies. It's what happens on forums)

Labour didn't sell all the gold, some of it. Do I need to answer the second bit? Yes, they didn't invest enough, like all parties and governments.

The Class 370s apparently gave motion sickness to the reporters onboard, but that may be partly because they were supposedly drunk. It was early technology at the time and these problems have now been sorted out in various countries including the UK (Class 390s and Class 221s).