Thousands to march to American border.

Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby wutang » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:21 pm

Maddog wrote:
It doesn't really matter if you support many of these coups or not. They are the result of shitty government, and are going to happen anyway. It's why Costa Rica hasn't had one in our lifetimes, and Hondorus and Guatemala have them every 45 minutes.


The shitty government was the one imposed by the very military coup the US supported and continued to fund - as Chomsky pointed out Obama refused to call it a military coup because then by law the US would have to cut military funding to them. The reign of terror, and subsequent social breakdown (resulting in Honduras becoming the murder capital of the world) was literally paid for by your nation state.

Costa Rica doesnt get the focus as much as the others

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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby wutang » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:30 pm

US interventions pre-ww2

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Interesting how even then the US was fucking with Honduras, Nicaragua, Cuba,etc. Im sure it had nothing to do with American capital having major commercial interests in those places

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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby Maddog » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:16 pm

wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:
It doesn't really matter if you support many of these coups or not. They are the result of shitty government, and are going to happen anyway. It's why Costa Rica hasn't had one in our lifetimes, and Hondorus and Guatemala have them every 45 minutes.


The shitty government was the one imposed by the very military coup the US supported and continued to fund - as Chomsky pointed out Obama refused to call it a military coup because then by law the US would have to cut military funding to them. The reign of terror, and subsequent social breakdown (resulting in Honduras becoming the murder capital of the world) was literally paid for by your nation state.

Costa Rica doesnt get the focus as much as the others

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People have been rebelling against bad government since year one. They tend not to rebel against good government. No need for a scapegoat to explain that phenomenon.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby wutang » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:38 pm

Maddog wrote:People have been rebelling against bad government since year one.


The military arent the people, they are part of the state. And the reason they intervened was because the President was implementing progressive reform which the rich elites didnt like and also because of the growing struggles between the peasants and large landowners (guess which side the military took)

And it was their government that turned out to be the bad one

The result has been social decay and political repression. The homicide rate in Honduras has skyrocketed under the Porfirio Lobo regime, registering as the world’s highest in 2010. Human rights groups highlight the ongoing political assassinations of regime opponents. In this small country of 8 million people, 17 journalists have been killed since the coup. LGBTI organizers, indigenous rights activists, unionists, teachers, youth organizers, women’s advocates, and opposition politicians have also received death threats or been killed. Those responsible are rarely punished by the justice system, which instead devotes its energies to prosecuting social and human rights activists. Protests are often met with teargas canisters and live ammunition.
https://fpif.org/carbon_blood_money_in_honduras/


Maddog wrote:They tend not to rebel against good government.


Which is why the people of Honduras have been rebelling -

Protesters in Honduras have burned down government offices and demanded that US drug enforcers leave the area following the fatal shooting of four people.

Two men and two pregnant women were shot dead in a boat on the Patuca River in north-eastern Honduras on Friday, local officials say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100458


Thousands of rural workers in Honduras have occupied land as part of a dispute with large landowners and the government.
https://libcom.org/news/honduras-farm-w ... s-23042012


Maddog wrote:No need for a scapegoat to explain that phenomenon.


"Phenomemon" makes it sound like something that just happens as opposed to a situation that has very clear causes - America's constant interventions being a main one. The US doesnt chuck money at foreign militaries for shits and giggles, it expects them to look out for its interests. It continued to fund the brutal and savage regime therefore it has to share in the responsibility.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:10 pm

War is a racket
Major general Smedley Butler.

. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

This has gone on decade after dacade.
America are to blame.
https://www.businessinsider.com/excerpt ... 013-7?IR=T
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby Maddog » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:26 pm

wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:People have been rebelling against bad government since year one.


The military arent the people, they are part of the state. And the reason they intervened was because the President was implementing progressive reform which the rich elites didnt like and also because of the growing struggles between the peasants and large landowners (guess which side the military took)

And it was their government that turned out to be the bad one

The result has been social decay and political repression. The homicide rate in Honduras has skyrocketed under the Porfirio Lobo regime, registering as the world’s highest in 2010. Human rights groups highlight the ongoing political assassinations of regime opponents. In this small country of 8 million people, 17 journalists have been killed since the coup. LGBTI organizers, indigenous rights activists, unionists, teachers, youth organizers, women’s advocates, and opposition politicians have also received death threats or been killed. Those responsible are rarely punished by the justice system, which instead devotes its energies to prosecuting social and human rights activists. Protests are often met with teargas canisters and live ammunition.
https://fpif.org/carbon_blood_money_in_honduras/


Maddog wrote:They tend not to rebel against good government.


Which is why the people of Honduras have been rebelling -

Protesters in Honduras have burned down government offices and demanded that US drug enforcers leave the area following the fatal shooting of four people.

Two men and two pregnant women were shot dead in a boat on the Patuca River in north-eastern Honduras on Friday, local officials say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100458


Thousands of rural workers in Honduras have occupied land as part of a dispute with large landowners and the government.
https://libcom.org/news/honduras-farm-w ... s-23042012


Maddog wrote:No need for a scapegoat to explain that phenomenon.


"Phenomemon" makes it sound like something that just happens as opposed to a situation that has very clear causes - America's constant interventions being a main one. The US doesnt chuck money at foreign militaries for shits and giggles, it expects them to look out for its interests. It continued to fund the brutal and savage regime therefore it has to share in the responsibility.



The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby wutang » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:33 am

Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby LordRaven » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:50 pm

wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.



This is getting to be quite a story, I do hope the US shows a bit of empathy and allows many to claim asylum.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby Maddog » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:22 pm

wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.



Ah 1911.

Perhaps some Brits deserve a piece of France because of their meddling in 1778.

Let's be honest. The American Revolution should be blamed on France.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby LordRaven » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:24 pm

Maddog wrote:
wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.



Ah 1911.

Perhaps some Brits deserve a piece of France because of their meddling in 1778.

Let's be honest. The American Revolution should be blamed on France.


Most of France was ruled by England at one time, perhaps we ought to put in a claim --as per the Argentines claim on the Falklands
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby Maddog » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:25 pm

LordRaven wrote:
wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.



This is getting to be quite a story, I do hope the US shows a bit of empathy and allows many to claim asylum.



We already have.


According to the U.S. Census Bureau (figures taken at the 2005 census) 460,000 Hondurans live there, making them the third largest Central American community in the U.S. Members of the Honduran community live mainly in: Florida-88,000 (24,000 in Miami alone), 68,000 in Texas (27,000 in Houston and 6,000 in Dallas), 62,000 in California (25,000 in the city of Los Angeles), 51,000 in New York (36,000 in New York City), 55,000 in Louisiana (54,000 in New Orleans), 25,000 in New Jersey, 18,000 in Virginia, and 3,000 in Washington DC.

2012 US State Department estimates[1] suggested there are between 800,000 and 1 million Hondurans living in the United States, nearly 15% of the Honduran domestic population. The large uncertainty is due to the substantial number of Hondurans living illegally in the United States. The 2010 U.S. Census counted 633,401 Hondurans in the United States, up from 217,569 in 2000.[2]
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby LordRaven » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:27 pm

Maddog wrote:
LordRaven wrote:
wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.



This is getting to be quite a story, I do hope the US shows a bit of empathy and allows many to claim asylum.



We already have.


According to the U.S. Census Bureau (figures taken at the 2005 census) 460,000 Hondurans live there, making them the third largest Central American community in the U.S. Members of the Honduran community live mainly in: Florida-88,000 (24,000 in Miami alone), 68,000 in Texas (27,000 in Houston and 6,000 in Dallas), 62,000 in California (25,000 in the city of Los Angeles), 51,000 in New York (36,000 in New York City), 55,000 in Louisiana (54,000 in New Orleans), 25,000 in New Jersey, 18,000 in Virginia, and 3,000 in Washington DC.

2012 US State Department estimates[1] suggested there are between 800,000 and 1 million Hondurans living in the United States, nearly 15% of the Honduran domestic population. The large uncertainty is due to the substantial number of Hondurans living illegally in the United States. The 2010 U.S. Census counted 633,401 Hondurans in the United States, up from 217,569 in 2000.[2]


Big numbers!
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby Maddog » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:31 pm

LordRaven wrote:
Maddog wrote:
LordRaven wrote:
wutang wrote:
Maddog wrote:The "causes" predate the US. If the US were to disappear as a global power, the "causes" would still be there.


That doesnt absolve America of it role in creating the crisis

American capitalists literally turned Honduras into the first "banana republic"

The ousting of the president of Honduras, 1911

An account of the removal of President Davila of Honduras by US banana interests - creating the original “banana republic” - written by Stephen Kinzer.

https://libcom.org/history/ousting-pres ... duras-1911


Given how American capital help destroy that place the people there have every right to demand a piece of the American pie. Hence the migrant caravan.



This is getting to be quite a story, I do hope the US shows a bit of empathy and allows many to claim asylum.



We already have.


According to the U.S. Census Bureau (figures taken at the 2005 census) 460,000 Hondurans live there, making them the third largest Central American community in the U.S. Members of the Honduran community live mainly in: Florida-88,000 (24,000 in Miami alone), 68,000 in Texas (27,000 in Houston and 6,000 in Dallas), 62,000 in California (25,000 in the city of Los Angeles), 51,000 in New York (36,000 in New York City), 55,000 in Louisiana (54,000 in New Orleans), 25,000 in New Jersey, 18,000 in Virginia, and 3,000 in Washington DC.

2012 US State Department estimates[1] suggested there are between 800,000 and 1 million Hondurans living in the United States, nearly 15% of the Honduran domestic population. The large uncertainty is due to the substantial number of Hondurans living illegally in the United States. The 2010 U.S. Census counted 633,401 Hondurans in the United States, up from 217,569 in 2000.[2]


Big numbers!



1 out of 7 Hondurans live in the US now. That's in spite of the fact that we still to enforce some semblance of a border. Should we let everyone in? Is there a country on the planet that allows for that?
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby LordRaven » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:35 pm

Maddog wrote:

1 out of 7 Hondurans live in the US now. That's in spite of the fact that we still to enforce some semblance of a border. Should we let everyone in? Is there a country on the planet that allows for that?

It's a hard call, in Europe we are very much used to caravans of people heading here.
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Re: Thousands to march to American border.

Postby wutang » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:31 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ah 1911.


Which directly leads to 2009 and as a result 2018

Maddog wrote:Perhaps some Brits deserve a piece of France because of their meddling in 1778.

Let's be honest. The American Revolution should be blamed on France.


WTF are you babbling on about :off head:
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