Assisted Dying

A right load of bollocks...

Re: Assisted Dying

Postby NastyNickers » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:00 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
I know it's a lot more, this is an upsetting subject for everyone but there is a knock on effect on legalising assisted dying for those suffering.
Should traumatised teenagers who've suffered abuse get the same treatment because they can't live with the pain? This is what is happening in places it's legalised.


But that's not true, is it? Some countries allow assisted suicide for the mentally ill. The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium, though I think Canada were considering it. And it's not for traumatised, abused teenagers. It's for people who have tried all available therapies and have found no treatment, I think the term used is "unbearable suffering", and the conditions for this are strict.

it's a totally different issue.

Legislation does not have to include assisted dying for mental health issues. 6 states in the US have assisted dying. None include mental health. I think it's Oregon that have had it legal for 2 decades. You can be prescribed Life ending medication if you are terminal, have less than 6 months left to live, and are mentally competent and able to administer the medication yourself. Other states, including Washington and California, have similar legislation.
Columbia also legalised assisted dying for the terminally ill only.

It can be done. The "slippery slope" argument is a sloppy one.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Stooo » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:15 pm

Vam wrote:Thank you for the link, Lady M.

Jaw-dropping - kids clamouring to be euthanised, because of intolerable mental health issues :shake head: Certainly an unimaginable concept, and the last thing that would have ever occurred to me when I started this thread.


Search Google for Bridgend suicides :shake head:
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:01 am

Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:Thank you for the link, Lady M.

Jaw-dropping - kids clamouring to be euthanised, because of intolerable mental health issues :shake head: Certainly an unimaginable concept, and the last thing that would have ever occurred to me when I started this thread.


Me either, but I guess the lawmakers have to look beyond personal tragedies at how the whole of society can be affected.


True, but I guess lawmakers in countries where euthanasia clinics legally operate have done that.

You've certainly widened the debate today, and what you've shown us has genuinely shocked and saddened me. But it doesn't deviate from my overall support of scrupulously-controlled assisted dying. It should go without saying that every single application should be judged on its own merit, and in accordance with legal protocols.

Interestingly, this is an extract from the article you linked to. Imo, it perfectly sums up the ethos of controlled euthanasia...

"You can prepare for [euthanasia], you can say goodbye, you are present with someone, and it can be a loving memory not only hurt, as suicide is only hurt."


The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 am

NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
I know it's a lot more, this is an upsetting subject for everyone but there is a knock on effect on legalising assisted dying for those suffering.
Should traumatised teenagers who've suffered abuse get the same treatment because they can't live with the pain? This is what is happening in places it's legalised.


But that's not true, is it? Some countries allow assisted suicide for the mentally ill. The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium, though I think Canada were considering it. And it's not for traumatised, abused teenagers. It's for people who have tried all available therapies and have found no treatment, I think the term used is "unbearable suffering", and the conditions for this are strict.

it's a totally different issue.

Legislation does not have to include assisted dying for mental health issues. 6 states in the US have assisted dying. None include mental health. I think it's Oregon that have had it legal for 2 decades. You can be prescribed Life ending medication if you are terminal, have less than 6 months left to live, and are mentally competent and able to administer the medication yourself. Other states, including Washington and California, have similar legislation.
Columbia also legalised assisted dying for the terminally ill only.

It can be done. The "slippery slope" argument is a sloppy one.


How is it a totally different issue? It's about euthanising people who find living unbearably difficult.
Once you start, how can you stop people making a case for their difficulties?
I'll have to look into the USA states laws before I can comment on that.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby NastyNickers » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:26 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:
NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
I know it's a lot more, this is an upsetting subject for everyone but there is a knock on effect on legalising assisted dying for those suffering.
Should traumatised teenagers who've suffered abuse get the same treatment because they can't live with the pain? This is what is happening in places it's legalised.


But that's not true, is it? Some countries allow assisted suicide for the mentally ill. The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium, though I think Canada were considering it. And it's not for traumatised, abused teenagers. It's for people who have tried all available therapies and have found no treatment, I think the term used is "unbearable suffering", and the conditions for this are strict.

it's a totally different issue.

Legislation does not have to include assisted dying for mental health issues. 6 states in the US have assisted dying. None include mental health. I think it's Oregon that have had it legal for 2 decades. You can be prescribed Life ending medication if you are terminal, have less than 6 months left to live, and are mentally competent and able to administer the medication yourself. Other states, including Washington and California, have similar legislation.
Columbia also legalised assisted dying for the terminally ill only.

It can be done. The "slippery slope" argument is a sloppy one.


How is it a totally different issue? It's about euthanising people who find living unbearably difficult.
Once you start, how can you stop people making a case for their difficulties?
I'll have to look into the USA states laws before I can comment on that.


Because the only places where it's possible to access assisted dying for meatball health problems is in countries that have specific legislation for that.

The other countries don't include access for mental health. and as a result don't have mentally ill people participating in assisted dying. So your notion that one leads to the other is wrong, it doesn't.

Of course, it leads to conversation about allowing access, as seen in Canada. But shouldn't everyone be allowed to make a case for something they believe in? It doesn't mean we have to legalise it, and it shouldn't mean we keep something else illegal just to avoid that conversation.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:41 am

NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
I know it's a lot more, this is an upsetting subject for everyone but there is a knock on effect on legalising assisted dying for those suffering.
Should traumatised teenagers who've suffered abuse get the same treatment because they can't live with the pain? This is what is happening in places it's legalised.


But that's not true, is it? Some countries allow assisted suicide for the mentally ill. The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium, though I think Canada were considering it. And it's not for traumatised, abused teenagers. It's for people who have tried all available therapies and have found no treatment, I think the term used is "unbearable suffering", and the conditions for this are strict.

it's a totally different issue.

Legislation does not have to include assisted dying for mental health issues. 6 states in the US have assisted dying. None include mental health. I think it's Oregon that have had it legal for 2 decades. You can be prescribed Life ending medication if you are terminal, have less than 6 months left to live, and are mentally competent and able to administer the medication yourself. Other states, including Washington and California, have similar legislation.
Columbia also legalised assisted dying for the terminally ill only.

It can be done. The "slippery slope" argument is a sloppy one.


How is it a totally different issue? It's about euthanising people who find living unbearably difficult.
Once you start, how can you stop people making a case for their difficulties?
I'll have to look into the USA states laws before I can comment on that.


Because the only places where it's possible to access assisted dying for meatball health problems is in countries that have specific legislation for that.

The other countries don't include access for mental health. and as a result don't have mentally ill people participating in assisted dying. So your notion that one leads to the other is wrong, it doesn't.

Of course, it leads to conversation about allowing access, as seen in Canada. But shouldn't everyone be allowed to make a case for something they believe in? It doesn't mean we have to legalise it, and it shouldn't mean we keep something else illegal just to avoid that conversation.


I totally agree. Pro-Lifers use this argument all the time. They use the issue of coercion as their number 1 argument. Do they think reputable Doctors would be so easily led, used, bribed? Letting people suffer hideously is wrong, pro-lifers approve of this suffering and the accompanying sorrow and pain by blocking every attempt for a legal and humanitarian solution. It's painfully obvious that these people have never had to witness such suffering and grief for themselves. Each time an attempt to change this law fails my heart hurts and my anger grows. :monkey:
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:15 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:14 am

Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


you would have them live with unbearable suffering?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:02 am

Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


you would have them live with unbearable suffering?


My mistake - sorry. By the time I realised I shouldn't have included that in my post, it was too late to edit.

I wouldn't wish unbearable suffering, whether mental or physical, on anyone.

I'm by no means a medical expert, but I would hope that someone applying for an assisted death, on the grounds that their mental health issues are intolerable, could at the very least be medicated to try and alleviate/lessen their torment.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:11 am

Vam wrote:
Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


you would have them live with unbearable suffering?


My mistake - sorry. By the time I realised I shouldn't have included that in my post, it was too late to edit.

I wouldn't wish unbearable suffering, whether mental or physical, on anyone.

I'm by no means a medical expert, but I would hope that someone applying for an assisted death, on the grounds that their mental health issues are intolerable, could at the very least be medicated to try and alleviate/lessen their torment.


Unfortunately a lot of their problems stems from the effects of the hideous medication these poor people have to take. It's why so many won't take them. They have a double whammy.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:13 am

Vam wrote:
Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


you would have them live with unbearable suffering?


My mistake - sorry. By the time I realised I shouldn't have included that in my post, it was too late to edit.

I wouldn't wish unbearable suffering, whether mental or physical, on anyone.

I'm by no means a medical expert, but I would hope that someone applying for an assisted death, on the grounds that their mental health issues are intolerable, could at the very least be medicated to try and alleviate/lessen their torment.


i imagine the panel of experts who decide the cases would expect all treatments to have been tried before they even consider approving. this is one of those subjects that seems black and white on the surface but gets more complicated the deeper you look. it's a good thread.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:18 am

Stooo wrote:
Vam wrote:Thank you for the link, Lady M.

Jaw-dropping - kids clamouring to be euthanised, because of intolerable mental health issues :shake head: Certainly an unimaginable concept, and the last thing that would have ever occurred to me when I started this thread.


Search Google for Bridgend suicides :shake head:


I did, Stooo..."cluster suicides "...13 to 17-year old kids.

'Tragic' doesn't even come close.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby NastyNickers » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:55 am

Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


you would have them live with unbearable suffering?


My mistake - sorry. By the time I realised I shouldn't have included that in my post, it was too late to edit.

I wouldn't wish unbearable suffering, whether mental or physical, on anyone.

I'm by no means a medical expert, but I would hope that someone applying for an assisted death, on the grounds that their mental health issues are intolerable, could at the very least be medicated to try and alleviate/lessen their torment.


i imagine the panel of experts who decide the cases would expect all treatments to have been tried before they even consider approving. this is one of those subjects that seems black and white on the surface but gets more complicated the deeper you look. it's a good thread.


Yeah as far as I could make out assisted suicide is only offered for those who have tried all treatment and therapies and nothing has worked. In the cases I read about they had full support of their family too, so I suppose that illustrates how difficult their life must be.

The differing laws around assisted suicide, and voluntary euthanasia, are complicated and vary hugely. There's loads of safeguards in place, and each country/state do it differently. I totally agree though, cracking thread.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Foxy » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:12 pm

Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Guest wrote:
Vam wrote:
Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


you would have them live with unbearable suffering?


My mistake - sorry. By the time I realised I shouldn't have included that in my post, it was too late to edit.

I wouldn't wish unbearable suffering, whether mental or physical, on anyone.

I'm by no means a medical expert, but I would hope that someone applying for an assisted death, on the grounds that their mental health issues are intolerable, could at the very least be medicated to try and alleviate/lessen their torment.


Unfortunately a lot of their problems stems from the effects of the hideous medication these poor people have to take. It's why so many won't take them. They have a double whammy.


As someone who has worked with people with MH problems for many years, I have to agree with the above post. Many of them are so desperately unhappy with their lives that they are on suicide watch. Disposable razors counted in and out so they can't take out the blades to slash their wrists, rooms searched for plastic bags so they can't suffocate themselves, belts and ties so that they can't hang themselves, and to ensure they're not stockpiling meds. They are on meds, then another lot of meds to relieve the side effects of the first meds and so on ad infinitum. If by chance they do manage to harm themselves they are rushed to hospital and stitched up, pumped out or revived so that they have to continue to live with their despair.

As a nurse, you feel genuinely torn as to whether it's morally right to rush them to A & E, or just to turn away and let them end it. Of course, you have to do the former sometimes against what seems your better judgement.

It's a hugely difficult dilemma. We lose lots of staff who are just unable to cope.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:20 pm

The desperate plight of mental health patients who request assisted suicide is a very grey area in the context of this discussion. Tbh, I'm struggling to have an opinion on this issue - one way or another. Especially so, if the patient is of a young age! :shake head:

But I've seen Jack's very moving posts and the Guest who described her Dad's unimaginable ordeal and suffering. And I've yet to see a credible reason why incontrovertibly incurable, terminally ill adults, who are of sound mind, should not be legally entitled to dictate the terms of their death, rather than being a pitifully helpless hostage to it.

If they're not having to constantly fear, dread and fret about their physical deterioration and how they'll die, they could then have the peace of mind to spend what little time they have left savouring every moment of life.
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