Assisted Dying

A right load of bollocks...

Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am

NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
I know it's a lot more, this is an upsetting subject for everyone but there is a knock on effect on legalising assisted dying for those suffering.
Should traumatised teenagers who've suffered abuse get the same treatment because they can't live with the pain? This is what is happening in places it's legalised.


But that's not true, is it? Some countries allow assisted suicide for the mentally ill. The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium, though I think Canada were considering it. And it's not for traumatised, abused teenagers. It's for people who have tried all available therapies and have found no treatment, I think the term used is "unbearable suffering", and the conditions for this are strict.

it's a totally different issue.

Legislation does not have to include assisted dying for mental health issues. 6 states in the US have assisted dying. None include mental health. I think it's Oregon that have had it legal for 2 decades. You can be prescribed Life ending medication if you are terminal, have less than 6 months left to live, and are mentally competent and able to administer the medication yourself. Other states, including Washington and California, have similar legislation.
Columbia also legalised assisted dying for the terminally ill only.

It can be done. The "slippery slope" argument is a sloppy one.


How is it a totally different issue? It's about euthanising people who find living unbearably difficult.
Once you start, how can you stop people making a case for their difficulties?
I'll have to look into the USA states laws before I can comment on that.


Because the only places where it's possible to access assisted dying for meatball health problems is in countries that have specific legislation for that.

The other countries don't include access for mental health. and as a result don't have mentally ill people participating in assisted dying. So your notion that one leads to the other is wrong, it doesn't.

Of course, it leads to conversation about allowing access, as seen in Canada. But shouldn't everyone be allowed to make a case for something they believe in? It doesn't mean we have to legalise it, and it shouldn't mean we keep something else illegal just to avoid that conversation.


Absolutely, I'm all for having the conversation. Is depression a mental health problem?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:36 am

Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


Is someone who is depressed about their condition of sound mind?
Aren't you concerned that assisted suicide laws can become a way of washing our hands of caring for the weak and vulnerable?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:52 am

Vam wrote:The desperate plight of mental health patients who request assisted suicide is a very grey area in the context of this discussion. Tbh, I'm struggling to have an opinion on this issue - one way or another. Especially so, if the patient is of a young age! :shake head:

But I've seen Jack's very moving posts and the Guest who described her Dad's unimaginable ordeal and suffering. And I've yet to see a credible reason why incontrovertibly incurable, terminally ill adults, who are of sound mind, should not be legally entitled to dictate the terms of their death, rather than being a pitifully helpless hostage to it.

If they're not having to constantly fear, dread and fret about their physical deterioration and how they'll die, they could then have the peace of mind to spend what little time they have left savouring every moment of life.


Yes, this is crux of the issue.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:22 am

Ive found this on the complications of Oregan and Washington state laws on assisted suicide.

https://dredf.org/public-policy/assiste ... lications/
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:46 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:The lawmakers in those countries are realising what a pandoras box they've opened up.

The laws here are more to protect the vulnerable than to punish the innocent, but you must be aware that 'assisted' can easily become 'coerced'. There are some things that simply cannot be 'scrupulously-controlled' by the state.


Why not? Whilst little in life can be 100% guaranteed, other countries have nevertheless managed to legislate in favour of legally-assisted euthanasia.

The single, most crucial requirement of a person requesting an assisted death is that they are of sound mind. Tbh, I find it staggering that applications from people with 'unbearable' mental health issues would even be considered.


Is someone who is depressed about their condition of sound mind?
Aren't you concerned that assisted suicide laws can become a way of washing our hands of caring for the weak and vulnerable?


Sounds to me that your concern is utterly hypocritical. How dare you use the term "washing our hands of the weak and vulnerable". With every post you reveal that you have absolutely no experience of any of the issues mentioned in this thread. Likewise with your next post your crux of the matter comment is is unbelievably snide. Let's not allieveiate fear and suffering...

Do you honestly think that people will be "put down" willy nilly? That anyone who wants rid of Auntie Beryl for her money is just going to be able to bribe and coerce respectable doctors into bumping her off for a cut just because she stubbed her toe on the door frame?

People like you are the intransigent barrier to Assisted Dying legislation becoming law in this country. God forbid anything horrific happens to your loved ones because the scales will drop from your eyes. Living skeletons do not make us look pious or good, it makes us complicit in the most horrendous suffering and as mentioned we don't let this happen to our beloved pets.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:15 am

Guest...you are, without a doubt, the 'star' of this thread - even though I know you couldn't care less about that.

You've expressed (far more eloquently than me!) the fundamental, core essence of the issues assisted euthanasia should be all about. I'm just sorry that you're having to do so as a result of the bitter, traumatic experience you've been through.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:23 am

Vam wrote:Guest...you are, without a doubt, the 'star' of this thread - even though I know you couldn't care less about that.

You've expressed (far more eloquently than me!) the fundamental, core essence of the issues assisted euthanasia should be all about. I'm just sorry that you're having to do so as a result of the bitter, traumatic experience you've been through.


'Guest' may be correct about their own experience but 'guest' is very wrong about me.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:30 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:Guest...you are, without a doubt, the 'star' of this thread - even though I know you couldn't care less about that.

You've expressed (far more eloquently than me!) the fundamental, core essence of the issues assisted euthanasia should be all about. I'm just sorry that you're having to do so as a result of the bitter, traumatic experience you've been through.


'Guest' may be correct about their own experience but 'guest' is very wrong about me.


Yes, I agree.

Perils of being online I guess - it can be hard sometimes to glean intentions, just based on the written word, and without being able to gauge body language and see the whites of people's eyes.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:08 pm

Vam wrote:Guest...you are, without a doubt, the 'star' of this thread - even though I know you couldn't care less about that.

You've expressed (far more eloquently than me!) the fundamental, core essence of the issues assisted euthanasia should be all about. I'm just sorry that you're having to do so as a result of the bitter, traumatic experience you've been through.


Thank you Vam, I appreciate that.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:18 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:Guest...you are, without a doubt, the 'star' of this thread - even though I know you couldn't care less about that.

You've expressed (far more eloquently than me!) the fundamental, core essence of the issues assisted euthanasia should be all about. I'm just sorry that you're having to do so as a result of the bitter, traumatic experience you've been through.


'Guest' may be correct about their own experience but 'guest' is very wrong about me.



'Guest', is not wrong about you. 'Guest', is able to read and what you are saying. So now you're intimating that your experiences somehow mirror those of 'Guest' and that you have experienced/witnessed months of unending physical suffering and the complete breakdown of a loved ones body. You must be made of stone if witnessing that has not spurred you on to fight for an end to it with all your being. I don't think you have witnessed anything like that at all.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby NastyNickers » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:07 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:Absolutely, I'm all for having the conversation. Is depression a mental health problem?


Of course it is.

This morning my best friends dad took his last breath at 51 years old. He has been fighting melonoma for 4 months. He was having surgery to try and repair and ease the necrosis across his chest. He got too poorly for that, though, and at the end of September the pain became too much and he got really agitated, so his pain needs were upped to deal with it. He hasn't been conscious since then.
They've sat by his bedside for two weeks, watching and waiting for him to die. The pain increased, the meds increased. I had my friend on the phone this morning sobbing because he's gone and all she feels is relief and guilt for being relieved.

Properly regulated with the right legislation and controls, none of them would have to have gone through this. Why would we put people through this kind of torture?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:37 am

Sorry to read that NN. I don't believe the law is about putting people through torture, it's about protecting vulnerable people.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:22 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:Sorry to read that NN. I don't believe the law is about putting people through torture, it's about protecting vulnerable people.


That should be a given.

If you felt confident that the interests of vulnerable people were being stringently protected, would you then be in favour of assisted euthanasia in principle?

@ Nic...sad news. He was no age, bless him. Your friend must be in bits, but I can certainly understand her sense of relief. I've been there, too....
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:26 am

NastyNickers wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:Absolutely, I'm all for having the conversation. Is depression a mental health problem?


Of course it is.

This morning my best friends dad took his last breath at 51 years old. He has been fighting melonoma for 4 months. He was having surgery to try and repair and ease the necrosis across his chest. He got too poorly for that, though, and at the end of September the pain became too much and he got really agitated, so his pain needs were upped to deal with it. He hasn't been conscious since then.
They've sat by his bedside for two weeks, watching and waiting for him to die. The pain increased, the meds increased. I had my friend on the phone this morning sobbing because he's gone and all she feels is relief and guilt for being relieved.

Properly regulated with the right legislation and controls, none of them would have to have gone through this. Why would we put people through this kind of torture?


Another scenario the same as ours, so very, very sad to read this. This could be entirely avoided, it's a disgrace that this is allowed to happen in the 21st Century. My heart goes out to your friends family. There should be no guilt in relief, the avalanche of grief and anger will hit home soon enough.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Guest » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:31 am

Lady Murasaki wrote:Sorry to read that NN. I don't believe the law is about putting people through torture, it's about protecting vulnerable people.


How vulnerable do you have to be? Is decomposing while you are still alive not evidence enough that the law is actually about putting people through torture? I don't believe you actually care. :ooer:
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