Assisted Dying

A right load of bollocks...

Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:09 pm

McAz wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:After seeing someone through to their death from lung cancer I entirely support assisted dying. I sincerely hope the choice is there when it is my time.


The choice is there for whoever wants to do it, unless they can't move.


Do you mean suicide? If so, how is that assisted? And how terrible for those who cannot move.


Yes I do. I believe it's unfair to expect someone to assist a death, if that is that persons choice.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:10 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:After seeing someone through to their death from lung cancer I entirely support assisted dying. I sincerely hope the choice is there when it is my time.


The choice is there for whoever wants to do it, unless they can't move.


Jeez....*gives up* :dunno:
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby McAz » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:12 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:After seeing someone through to their death from lung cancer I entirely support assisted dying. I sincerely hope the choice is there when it is my time.


The choice is there for whoever wants to do it, unless they can't move.


Do you mean suicide? If so, how is that assisted? And how terrible for those who cannot move.


Yes I do. I believe it's unfair to expect someone to assist a death, if that is that persons choice.


If someone is willing to help then that is their choice. I think I would be willing to help those I care for.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:14 pm

Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:Sadly, places like Dignitas in Switzerland are beyond the means of many terminal patients - they simply couldn't afford it.

Plus, aside from the expense, imagine the actual logistics and the extreme hassle of getting your incapacitated body, all your medical equipment and meds, and an accompanying carer, all the way over to Switzerland.

I get that existing laws guard against situations in which vulnerable people feel pressure to prematurely end their life, to avoid being a burden on their loved ones.

But, provided rigid safeguarding protocols are in place, to be strictly followed to the letter, I honestly cannot understand why existing legislation can't be changed/amended.


Because they don't believe the BIB is possible. There is grave concern that a change in law would encourage forced euthanasia.


I'm sorry, but who do you mean by "they"?

Couldn't foolproof measures be taken to eliminate the grave concern you refer to? For example, let's hypothesise a case where the prognosis is incontrovertibly 'terminal' - that is, six months or less life expectancy - and the patient is deemed to be of sound mind. There should of course be mandatory consultation with 2 or more court-accredited doctors who are prepared to sign off on the prognosis, plus court-ordered, in-depth questioning of family, carers and anyone else involved, to ensure beyond doubt that the patient isn't under any pressure to prematurely end his/her life.

Surely all of that would be preferable to a law that removes a patient's reasonable request for a right to die painlessly, peacefully and with dignity.

Current legislation poses the risk of people just taking matters into their own hands, out of sheer desperation, which could very possibly result in botched suicide attempts.


They being the lawmakers.

There is no foolproof method that is good enough to legalise it, hence it was turned down again today.

Painless death? What makes you think that it's painless?

No, there's too much scope for people to take advantage if the law changed.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:15 pm

Foxy wrote:I'm certainly pro assisted dying providing it's tightly controlled. Allowing terminally ill people to suffer when they want to die is what is criminal.

I've been looking for an article, I couldn't search for it because I couldn't remember what it was called but I've found it, it's called the Doctrine of Double Effect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introductio ... fect.shtml

It's a great one that doctors can and do use if a patient is in intense pain.

Sadly, debilitating illnesses like Motor Neurone Disease or advanced Parkinsons are as distressing, arguably more so, yet the case for DDE cannot be argued because there is no physical pain.


Thanks for looking that up.

And thank goodness for any healthcare professionals out there who will occasionally view the "lines" as blurred.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:15 pm

Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:After seeing someone through to their death from lung cancer I entirely support assisted dying. I sincerely hope the choice is there when it is my time.


The choice is there for whoever wants to do it, unless they can't move.


Jeez....*gives up* :dunno:


Don't be stupid, it's a discussion, that you started, are we all supposed to agree with you?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:17 pm

McAz wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:After seeing someone through to their death from lung cancer I entirely support assisted dying. I sincerely hope the choice is there when it is my time.


The choice is there for whoever wants to do it, unless they can't move.


Do you mean suicide? If so, how is that assisted? And how terrible for those who cannot move.


Yes I do. I believe it's unfair to expect someone to assist a death, if that is that persons choice.


If someone is willing to help then that is their choice. I think I would be willing to help those I care for.


It would be unfair of them to ask you to. Or are you deciding for them?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:18 pm

When my spinal tumours appeared on scans it was thought I had MS because of some of the nerves being demyelinated.
I had of course heard of it but knew zilch about it.
Started looking around on the internet and speaking to people on forums to see what I'm faced with.
Turned out not to be MS.
I remembered a guy on the Mirror forum with it and his wife and daughter typed all his posts out for him ... that had me worried. Then I discover you can go blind or deaf or blind and deaf.
Could I handle going deaf?
I love music.
But it had to be better than going blind!
Then I came across stories of people who have gone blind and deaf and I sat turning that over in my head.
How would I know if anyone was in the room with me?
If they tapped me on the shoulder how would I know who it was?
How would I communicate?
I dwelt on that for months till I got the all clear.
I'd actually said to my family that should I be getting near that point it would have to be a heroin overdose as there is no way I could consider that existence as being alive and living.
I would have been taken to a party and would have been assisted but the person would remain anonymous.
So yes I'm all for it.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:23 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:When my spinal tumours appeared on scans it was thought I had MS because of some of the nerves being demyelinated.
I had of course heard of it but knew zilch about it.
Started looking around on the internet and speaking to people on forums to see what I'm faced with.
Turned out not to be MS.
I remembered a guy on the Mirror forum with it and his wife and daughter typed all his posts out for him ... that had me worried. Then I discover you can go blind or deaf or blind and deaf.
Could I handle going deaf?
I love music.
But it had to be better than going blind!
Then I came across stories of people who have gone blind and deaf and I sat turning that over in my head.
How would I know if anyone was in the room with me?
If they tapped me on the shoulder how would I know who it was?
How would I communicate?
I dwelt on that for months till I got the all clear.
I'd actually said to my family that should I be getting near that point it would have to be a heroin overdose as there is no way I could consider that existence as being alive and living.
I would have been taken to a party and would have been assisted but the person would remain anonymous.
So yes I'm all for it.


And if you didn't get the all clear, or if the doctors made a mistake with your diagnosis you would have been a goner by now?
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:27 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:When my spinal tumours appeared on scans it was thought I had MS because of some of the nerves being demyelinated.
I had of course heard of it but knew zilch about it.
Started looking around on the internet and speaking to people on forums to see what I'm faced with.
Turned out not to be MS.
I remembered a guy on the Mirror forum with it and his wife and daughter typed all his posts out for him ... that had me worried. Then I discover you can go blind or deaf or blind and deaf.
Could I handle going deaf?
I love music.
But it had to be better than going blind!
Then I came across stories of people who have gone blind and deaf and I sat turning that over in my head.
How would I know if anyone was in the room with me?
If they tapped me on the shoulder how would I know who it was?
How would I communicate?
I dwelt on that for months till I got the all clear.
I'd actually said to my family that should I be getting near that point it would have to be a heroin overdose as there is no way I could consider that existence as being alive and living.
I would have been taken to a party and would have been assisted but the person would remain anonymous.
So yes I'm all for it.


And if you didn't get the all clear, or if the doctors made a mistake with your diagnosis you would have been a goner by now?

Not necessarily.
Not everyone with MS goes that way.
I wouldn't have taken the jump until I got pretty far down the road with those two problems.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:30 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:
I'm sorry, but who do you mean by "they"?

Couldn't foolproof measures be taken to eliminate the grave concern you refer to? For example, let's hypothesise a case where the prognosis is incontrovertibly 'terminal' - that is, six months or less life expectancy - and the patient is deemed to be of sound mind. There should of course be mandatory consultation with 2 or more court-accredited doctors who are prepared to sign off on the prognosis, plus court-ordered, in-depth questioning of family, carers and anyone else involved, to ensure beyond doubt that the patient isn't under any pressure to prematurely end his/her life.

Surely all of that would be preferable to a law that removes a patient's reasonable request for a right to die painlessly, peacefully and with dignity.

Current legislation poses the risk of people just taking matters into their own hands, out of sheer desperation, which could very possibly result in botched suicide attempts.


They being the lawmakers.

There is no foolproof method that is good enough to legalise it, hence it was turned down again today.

Painless death? What makes you think that it's painless?

No, there's too much scope for people to take advantage if the law changed.


I respect your views on this, I really do.

But I still fully support a terminally-ill person's right to make an informed choice on how they should die, provided that all legal criteria is met, of course.

Morphine eases pain. Strictly-supervised, medically-administered morphine can make the pain go away for ever. I believe that would be a blessed release for Noel Conway and many like him.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Lady Murasaki » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:33 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:When my spinal tumours appeared on scans it was thought I had MS because of some of the nerves being demyelinated.
I had of course heard of it but knew zilch about it.
Started looking around on the internet and speaking to people on forums to see what I'm faced with.
Turned out not to be MS.
I remembered a guy on the Mirror forum with it and his wife and daughter typed all his posts out for him ... that had me worried. Then I discover you can go blind or deaf or blind and deaf.
Could I handle going deaf?
I love music.
But it had to be better than going blind!
Then I came across stories of people who have gone blind and deaf and I sat turning that over in my head.
How would I know if anyone was in the room with me?
If they tapped me on the shoulder how would I know who it was?
How would I communicate?
I dwelt on that for months till I got the all clear.
I'd actually said to my family that should I be getting near that point it would have to be a heroin overdose as there is no way I could consider that existence as being alive and living.
I would have been taken to a party and would have been assisted but the person would remain anonymous.
So yes I'm all for it.


And if you didn't get the all clear, or if the doctors made a mistake with your diagnosis you would have been a goner by now?

Not necessarily.
Not everyone with MS goes that way.
I wouldn't have taken the jump until I got pretty far down the road with those two problems.


But you are physically struggling now, you could easily have misinterpreted your present symptoms as MS symptoms and decided things were only going to get much worse. So when you say "not necessarily", don't you you mean "possibly yes"!
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Vam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:After seeing someone through to their death from lung cancer I entirely support assisted dying. I sincerely hope the choice is there when it is my time.


The choice is there for whoever wants to do it, unless they can't move.


Jeez....*gives up* :dunno:


Don't be stupid, it's a discussion, that you started, are we all supposed to agree with you?


Hardly :roll:

Just felt your wording was a little crass, tbh. And stupid.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby McAz » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:35 pm

Lady Murasaki wrote:
McAz wrote:If someone is willing to help then that is their choice. I think I would be willing to help those I care for.


It would be unfair of them to ask you to. Or are you deciding for them?


I wouldn't think of it as unfair anymore than I thought it unfair to be asked to hold a relative stranger during their dying moments. I won't pretend that I didn't find it emotionally challenging but I now consider it to be a privilege and something I look back on as something special.

I certainly wouldn't be deciding for them - it's not my call.
Last edited by McAz on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Assisted Dying

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:36 pm

Vam wrote:
Lady Murasaki wrote:
Vam wrote:
I'm sorry, but who do you mean by "they"?

Couldn't foolproof measures be taken to eliminate the grave concern you refer to? For example, let's hypothesise a case where the prognosis is incontrovertibly 'terminal' - that is, six months or less life expectancy - and the patient is deemed to be of sound mind. There should of course be mandatory consultation with 2 or more court-accredited doctors who are prepared to sign off on the prognosis, plus court-ordered, in-depth questioning of family, carers and anyone else involved, to ensure beyond doubt that the patient isn't under any pressure to prematurely end his/her life.

Surely all of that would be preferable to a law that removes a patient's reasonable request for a right to die painlessly, peacefully and with dignity.

Current legislation poses the risk of people just taking matters into their own hands, out of sheer desperation, which could very possibly result in botched suicide attempts.


They being the lawmakers.

There is no foolproof method that is good enough to legalise it, hence it was turned down again today.

Painless death? What makes you think that it's painless?

No, there's too much scope for people to take advantage if the law changed.


I respect your views on this, I really do.

But I still fully support a terminally-ill person's right to make an informed choice on how they should die, provided that all legal criteria is met, of course.

Morphine eases pain. Strictly-supervised, medically-administered morphine can make the pain go away for ever. I believe that would be a blessed release for Noel Conway and many like him.

The way I was thinking re previous posts wasn't regarding terminal illness but simply having to endure such an intolerable existence.
The argument would probably be well some people have managed to live like that for years but what is intolerable for one isn't for all so mine would have had to be an illegal one I imagined then and still do now.
It's not clear cut.
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