It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

A right load of bollocks...

Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Trapper John » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:18 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
wutang wrote:Image


Sorry for introducing facts into the discussion

Have a look at the Yanks ....
According to the most recent National Vital Statistics Report, more than 26,000 American babies born alive in 2009 died before their first birthday, which gives the U.S. a very high infant mortality rate of six infant deaths per 1,000 live births. In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. In 2005, we had fallen to number 30. Today in America, there are more premature babies than ever before and more full term babies die before their first birthday than in most European countries.

The most recent study (2011) looking and infant mortality and vaccination is perhaps the most disturbing. It finds that developed nations with the poorest infant mortality rates, like the U.S., tend to give their infants more vaccine doses before age one. To put this into perspective, doctors give American babies 26 vaccine doses before age one, which is twice as many vaccinations as are given babies in Sweden and Japan. Is it really just a "coincidence" that the infant mortality rate is twice as high in America as it is in Sweden and Japan?

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/arti ... abies.aspx


Jack that is interesting but a far more accurate analysis needs to be done before blaming vaccinations for infant deaths.

You would need to do a huge cross-section encompassing people with almost the same standards of living, lifestyles, locations and numerous other things I can't think of at the moment which would affect their mortality, to even approach getting a comparison.

For example, how can you compare a child born in the middle of Manhattan, or the slums of Detroit to a child born in a cabin by a Swedish Lake or a child born on the slopes of mount Fuji?
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:22 pm

Trapper John wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:
wutang wrote:Image


Sorry for introducing facts into the discussion

Have a look at the Yanks ....
According to the most recent National Vital Statistics Report, more than 26,000 American babies born alive in 2009 died before their first birthday, which gives the U.S. a very high infant mortality rate of six infant deaths per 1,000 live births. In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. In 2005, we had fallen to number 30. Today in America, there are more premature babies than ever before and more full term babies die before their first birthday than in most European countries.

The most recent study (2011) looking and infant mortality and vaccination is perhaps the most disturbing. It finds that developed nations with the poorest infant mortality rates, like the U.S., tend to give their infants more vaccine doses before age one. To put this into perspective, doctors give American babies 26 vaccine doses before age one, which is twice as many vaccinations as are given babies in Sweden and Japan. Is it really just a "coincidence" that the infant mortality rate is twice as high in America as it is in Sweden and Japan?

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/arti ... abies.aspx


Jack that is interesting but a far more accurate analysis needs to be done before blaming vaccinations for infant deaths.

You would need to do a huge cross-section encompassing people with almost the same standards of living, lifestyles, locations and numerous other things I can't think of at the moment which would affect their mortality, to even approach getting a comparison.

For example, how can you compare a child born in the middle of Manhattan, or the slums of Detroit to a child born in a cabin by a Swedish Lake or a child born on the slopes of mount Fuji?

I agree and it says as much in the link.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Trapper John » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:35 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
Trapper John wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:
wutang wrote:Image


Sorry for introducing facts into the discussion

Have a look at the Yanks ....
According to the most recent National Vital Statistics Report, more than 26,000 American babies born alive in 2009 died before their first birthday, which gives the U.S. a very high infant mortality rate of six infant deaths per 1,000 live births. In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. In 2005, we had fallen to number 30. Today in America, there are more premature babies than ever before and more full term babies die before their first birthday than in most European countries.

The most recent study (2011) looking and infant mortality and vaccination is perhaps the most disturbing. It finds that developed nations with the poorest infant mortality rates, like the U.S., tend to give their infants more vaccine doses before age one. To put this into perspective, doctors give American babies 26 vaccine doses before age one, which is twice as many vaccinations as are given babies in Sweden and Japan. Is it really just a "coincidence" that the infant mortality rate is twice as high in America as it is in Sweden and Japan?

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/arti ... abies.aspx


Jack that is interesting but a far more accurate analysis needs to be done before blaming vaccinations for infant deaths.

You would need to do a huge cross-section encompassing people with almost the same standards of living, lifestyles, locations and numerous other things I can't think of at the moment which would affect their mortality, to even approach getting a comparison.

For example, how can you compare a child born in the middle of Manhattan, or the slums of Detroit to a child born in a cabin by a Swedish Lake or a child born on the slopes of mount Fuji?

I agree and it says as much in the link.


Ok, so I never read your link sorry :oops:
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby wutang » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:58 pm

Trapper John wrote:You missed out the most pertinent reason of course, tiny and easily managable populations coupled with high government income, so I fixed it for you. :thumbsup:



High government income cause they dont give massive tax cuts to the rich every five minutes.

So like I said - didnt buy into the thatcherism shyte like this country
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby wutang » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:06 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
wutang wrote:Image


Sorry for introducing facts into the discussion

Have a look at the Yanks ....
According to the most recent National Vital Statistics Report, more than 26,000 American babies born alive in 2009 died before their first birthday, which gives the U.S. a very high infant mortality rate of six infant deaths per 1,000 live births. In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. In 2005, we had fallen to number 30. Today in America, there are more premature babies than ever before and more full term babies die before their first birthday than in most European countries.

The most recent study (2011) looking and infant mortality and vaccination is perhaps the most disturbing. It finds that developed nations with the poorest infant mortality rates, like the U.S., tend to give their infants more vaccine doses before age one. To put this into perspective, doctors give American babies 26 vaccine doses before age one, which is twice as many vaccinations as are given babies in Sweden and Japan. Is it really just a "coincidence" that the infant mortality rate is twice as high in America as it is in Sweden and Japan?

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/arti ... abies.aspx


Or because America has hardcore poverty not seen in most first world nations.

America doesnt have universal healthcare and it's Christian fundamentalism means family planning centres are often underfunded and closed down. Infant mortality rates are extremely high in these areas, especially among the poor.

Just like week they cut a program providing free healthcare to 9 million kids. In Sweden those kids are guaranteed healthcare.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Trapper John » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:44 pm

wutang wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:
wutang wrote:Image


Sorry for introducing facts into the discussion

Have a look at the Yanks ....
According to the most recent National Vital Statistics Report, more than 26,000 American babies born alive in 2009 died before their first birthday, which gives the U.S. a very high infant mortality rate of six infant deaths per 1,000 live births. In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. In 2005, we had fallen to number 30. Today in America, there are more premature babies than ever before and more full term babies die before their first birthday than in most European countries.

The most recent study (2011) looking and infant mortality and vaccination is perhaps the most disturbing. It finds that developed nations with the poorest infant mortality rates, like the U.S., tend to give their infants more vaccine doses before age one. To put this into perspective, doctors give American babies 26 vaccine doses before age one, which is twice as many vaccinations as are given babies in Sweden and Japan. Is it really just a "coincidence" that the infant mortality rate is twice as high in America as it is in Sweden and Japan?

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/arti ... abies.aspx


Or because America has hardcore poverty not seen in most first world nations.

America doesnt have universal healthcare and it's Christian fundamentalism means family planning centres are often underfunded and closed down. Infant mortality rates are extremely high in these areas, especially among the poor.

Just like week they cut a program providing free healthcare to 9 million kids. In Sweden those kids are guaranteed healthcare.


The bigger the population the harder it is to please - just simple mathematics really, proved by your comparison of a country of 325 million to one of 10 million.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Canary » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:27 pm

Guest wrote:why do people sterilise baby bottles when kids have got to the stage of picking things up and putting them in their mouths? too much hygiene is creating a generation of ninnies.

the not sleeping on the front and swaddling thing is right though, tj, far fewer cot deaths now that has changed.

Good point, excellent question.
Forums are for discussions, so here are my opinions as to the reasons for this apparent anomaly, IMO, backed by facts.

1. The bugs in milk are not the same as the ones on dry surfaces like furniture, mats, rugs, or random objects which the infant puts in its mouth. Milk has its own very specific group of bugs unique to it and some can be quite nastily pathogenic.

2. The structure of feeding bottles (esp the screw caps and teats) means that there are some nooks / crannies / crevices where milk bugs could multiply, even in washed bottles. Sterilising is a way of ensuring that all those little crevices get cleansed, (eg in the same way that flossing ensures that some crevices inaccessible to toothbrushes get cleansed.)


When the infant is older and it becomes possible to discard the feeding bottle and start using an ordinary cup (& spoon), sterilisation is no longer necessary. Ordinary handwashing of the cup will suffice.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:13 pm

Canary wrote:
Guest wrote:why do people sterilise baby bottles when kids have got to the stage of picking things up and putting them in their mouths? too much hygiene is creating a generation of ninnies.

the not sleeping on the front and swaddling thing is right though, tj, far fewer cot deaths now that has changed.

Good point, excellent question.
Forums are for discussions, so here are my opinions as to the reasons for this apparent anomaly, IMO, backed by facts.

1. The bugs in milk are not the same as the ones on dry surfaces like furniture, mats, rugs, or random objects which the infant puts in its mouth. Milk has its own very specific group of bugs unique to it and some can be quite nastily pathogenic.

2. The structure of feeding bottles (esp the screw caps and teats) means that there are some nooks / crannies / crevices where milk bugs could multiply, even in washed bottles. Sterilising is a way of ensuring that all those little crevices get cleansed, (eg in the same way that flossing ensures that some crevices inaccessible to toothbrushes get cleansed.)


When the infant is older and it becomes possible to discard the feeding bottle and start using an ordinary cup (& spoon), sterilisation is no longer necessary. Ordinary handwashing of the cup will suffice.

What a good answer!
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Lady Murasaki » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:59 am

Thank god for dishwashers, they wash and sterilise.
More or less.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Guest » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:04 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
Canary wrote:
Guest wrote:why do people sterilise baby bottles when kids have got to the stage of picking things up and putting them in their mouths? too much hygiene is creating a generation of ninnies.

the not sleeping on the front and swaddling thing is right though, tj, far fewer cot deaths now that has changed.

Good point, excellent question.
Forums are for discussions, so here are my opinions as to the reasons for this apparent anomaly, IMO, backed by facts.

1. The bugs in milk are not the same as the ones on dry surfaces like furniture, mats, rugs, or random objects which the infant puts in its mouth. Milk has its own very specific group of bugs unique to it and some can be quite nastily pathogenic.

2. The structure of feeding bottles (esp the screw caps and teats) means that there are some nooks / crannies / crevices where milk bugs could multiply, even in washed bottles. Sterilising is a way of ensuring that all those little crevices get cleansed, (eg in the same way that flossing ensures that some crevices inaccessible to toothbrushes get cleansed.)


When the infant is older and it becomes possible to discard the feeding bottle and start using an ordinary cup (& spoon), sterilisation is no longer necessary. Ordinary handwashing of the cup will suffice.

What a good answer!


yes, very informative, thanks canary & thanks to the other poster who said about milk germs too.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Holly » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:21 pm

Guest wrote:
Rolluplostinspace wrote:
Canary wrote:
Guest wrote:why do people sterilise baby bottles when kids have got to the stage of picking things up and putting them in their mouths? too much hygiene is creating a generation of ninnies.

the not sleeping on the front and swaddling thing is right though, tj, far fewer cot deaths now that has changed.

Good point, excellent question.
Forums are for discussions, so here are my opinions as to the reasons for this apparent anomaly, IMO, backed by facts.

1. The bugs in milk are not the same as the ones on dry surfaces like furniture, mats, rugs, or random objects which the infant puts in its mouth. Milk has its own very specific group of bugs unique to it and some can be quite nastily pathogenic.

2. The structure of feeding bottles (esp the screw caps and teats) means that there are some nooks / crannies / crevices where milk bugs could multiply, even in washed bottles. Sterilising is a way of ensuring that all those little crevices get cleansed, (eg in the same way that flossing ensures that some crevices inaccessible to toothbrushes get cleansed.)


When the infant is older and it becomes possible to discard the feeding bottle and start using an ordinary cup (& spoon), sterilisation is no longer necessary. Ordinary handwashing of the cup will suffice.

What a good answer!


yes, very informative, thanks canary & thanks to the other poster who said about milk germs too.


Yes I agree, it's a very good post from Canny...however, I ask myself, how did I, my parents and and theirs ever make it to adulthood? Yes I'm sure they boiled all the bottles and wot not, but I don't think things were too overly hygienic back then. Oh and how did children survive 1000/2000/3000/4000 years ago? I do think that being over the top careful, is basically achieving the opposite.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Rolluplostinspace » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:31 pm

I was a kid in the fifties.
No sterilizing equipment then.
No dishwashers.
Not even a stainless steel draining board attached to the sink but a wooden one.
Holes in our shoes thick industrial fogs to breath around this time of year every year and those times are considered the healthiest fittest times since the industrial revolution.
A few things come to mind regarding that.
Very few cars existed.
Lots of exercise.
The food supply had not been taken over by chemical and pharmaceutical companies.
The only food supplement was cod liver oil.
Horse shit in the streets.
Milk from local farms with very little hygiene if any.
Meat and dairy purchased daily as needed.
Does any of it count?
Who knows :dunno:
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Canary » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:41 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:
Canary wrote:
Guest wrote:why do people sterilise baby bottles when kids have got to the stage of picking things up and putting them in their mouths? too much hygiene is creating a generation of ninnies.

the not sleeping on the front and swaddling thing is right though, tj, far fewer cot deaths now that has changed.

Good point, excellent question.
Forums are for discussions, so here are my opinions as to the reasons for this apparent anomaly, IMO, backed by facts.

1. The bugs in milk are not the same as the ones on dry surfaces like furniture, mats, rugs, or random objects which the infant puts in its mouth. Milk has its own very specific group of bugs unique to it and some can be quite nastily pathogenic.

2. The structure of feeding bottles (esp the screw caps and teats) means that there are some nooks / crannies / crevices where milk bugs could multiply, even in washed bottles. Sterilising is a way of ensuring that all those little crevices get cleansed, (eg in the same way that flossing ensures that some crevices inaccessible to toothbrushes get cleansed.)


When the infant is older and it becomes possible to discard the feeding bottle and start using an ordinary cup (& spoon), sterilisation is no longer necessary. Ordinary handwashing of the cup will suffice.


What a good answer!


Didn't want my post to be too long, so omitted number 3, which was to reiterate the HUGE importance of keeping surfaces dry, in the fight against bugs. Germs can live on dry surfaces of course ..... but they simply cannot multiply when there is no moisture. Moisture is essential for the reproduction of bugs.

(Hence why when birds and animals drop dead in the desert they do not rot. The hot dry environment makes it impossible for worms, maggots, flies to live long enough to multiply and conduct the decomposing process. The bird/animal carcasses simply shrivel to a crisp under the hot sun instead - but I digress.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Canary » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:49 pm

Holly wrote:Yes I agree, it's a very good post from Canny...however, I ask myself, how did I, my parents and and theirs ever make it to adulthood? Yes I'm sure they boiled all the bottles and wot not, but I don't think things were too overly hygienic back then. Oh and how did children survive 1000/2000/3000/4000 years ago? I do think that being over the top careful, is basically achieving the opposite.


Hi Holly.
They did not 'survive' tho. They died.
Well LOADS did! They still do in poor countries today.
The huge numbers dying were offset by a huge birth rate.
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Re: It's A Wonder Any Of Us Are Alive Today

Postby Canary » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:02 pm

Rolluplostinspace wrote:I was a kid in the fifties.
No sterilizing equipment then.
No dishwashers.
Not even a stainless steel draining board attached to the sink but a wooden one.
Holes in our shoes thick industrial fogs to breath around this time of year every year and those times are considered the healthiest fittest times since the industrial revolution.
A few things come to mind regarding that.
Very few cars existed.
Lots of exercise.
The food supply had not been taken over by chemical and pharmaceutical companies.
The only food supplement was cod liver oil.
Horse shit in the streets.
Milk from local farms with very little hygiene if any.
Meat and dairy purchased daily as needed.
Does any of it count?
Who knows :dunno:


Hi again Rollup.
Where can I start?

You are a product of many thousands of years of Darwinian selection of strong bug-fighting genes.
But to a large extent this genetic advantage over our ancestors has been has been 'neutralised' by modern-day pollutants in the air, water and soil, I feel.
And yes you may be right that immunisation jabs have interfered with our natural immunity.
But on the whole vaccinations have surely been a positive thing simply cos they've saved numerous lives.


There has never been a time in history when humans were NOT at the mercy of bugs!
The bubonic/black plague threatened to turn the entire continent of Europe into one BIG cemetery.
More recently, in the 18th/19th centuries Royal households lost babies to food bugs like typhoid,
And THEY were of course the highest on the socio-economic ladder, had the best nutrition & best doctors - imagine what their impoverished subjects went thru.


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Anywayyy hope my posts aren't taken the wrong way. Not being preachy, just giving opinions, that's all.
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