Famous twats and arseholes of the British Isles.

[Stooo]

Ray isn't the usual shout over your points gammon, I think he's open to argument.

Not into voting in favour of an undemocratic institution though.

If it was democratic there is an argument for rule at a pan-European level.

I'd rather go the other way though, devolution, local rule, not a fan of further globalisation which will only benefit the rich.

How is it undemocratic? Our MEPs have to be voted in using PR or didn't you know that we voted in the members of the European Parliament. Don't start me on the cost, it's a civil service, a bureaucracy much like we have here except our CC costs more than the EU equivalent.

Local rule is controlled by the rich but at least you'll be able to doff your cap at his lordship when he passes you sitting outside the pub with a brace of rabbits at your feet

[McAz]

It's like a bunch of cats gathered around a molehill, taking it in turns to whack the poor mole with their paws.

Something which I did see once and have never liked cats much since, evil little torturing bastards that they are.

Are you a mole, Ray?

[Stooo]

I've yet to see evidence of that - but like you so far I've given him the benefit of the doubt. He simply goes silent when he can't answer a question or is beaten in debate. I have yet to see him have the common courtesy to concede.

To be fair, it is a somewhat unequal playing field where most of the vaguely right-wing posters have been banned and it seems there's only one right-wing person allowed to argue with a bunch of left-wingers at any one time.

The odds are somewhat stacked against you.

People don't get banned for their political affiliation, people get banned for breaking the rules.

[Guest]

It's like a bunch of cats gathered around a molehill, taking it in turns to whack the poor mole with their paws.

Something which I did see once and have never liked cats much since, evil little torturing bastards that they are.

Are you a mole, Ray?

For the Kremlin?

[Rockstar]

I have yet to see him have the common courtesy to concede.

I've rarely seen this on forums in the political spectrum...I wish more of it would take place to find some meaning in the debates.

I do it when I'm wrong. Ray just repeats his previous bollox or goes silent - peado-enabler Thatcher being a case in point.

You may have but it's rare.

I may be biased but I've yet to see an Islamophobe/Racist concede a point ever...

[McAz]

I have yet to see him have the common courtesy to concede.

I've rarely seen this on forums in the political spectrum...I wish more of it would take place to find some meaning in the debates.

I do it when I'm wrong. Ray just repeats his previous bollox or goes silent - peado-enabler Thatcher being a case in point.

You may have but it's rare.

I may be biased but I've yet to see an Islamophobe/Racist concede a point ever...

No nor me - I'm hoping that Ray might be bigger than the usually slurry we get in these parts.

[Ray of Sunshine]

Local rule is controlled by the rich but at least you'll be able to doff your cap at his lordship when he passes you sitting outside the pub with a brace of rabbits at your feet

I was talking about local democracy not feudalism.

[BUDGIE]

Ray, if you could cite sources with concrete evidence of Brexit benefits, we might not be so skeptical.

When we leave the EU what makes you think they will be queuing up to trade with us? We are but a small island.

Tell me, what do we sell that is indispensable?

Weapons to the Saudis?

If the EU desire it, they don't have to trade with us, or they can do it on their terms. A pissy arsed small country with 60 million people does not tell a bloc of 350 million what to do.

The old cunts who voted Brexit want Britain back to the 1950's when there were few blacks and immigrants. But back then we had industries. We have fuck all now and if you mention Ford, Jaguar, Landrover or Vauxhall I will fucking declare a jihad.

[Ray of Sunshine]

We've already got a big trade deficit with the EU.

We haven't been manufacturing nation for a long time, we have a service-based economy.

Other European countries are the same or going the same way, we can't compete with manufacturing with China because our wages are a lot higher.

[Stooo]

Local rule is controlled by the rich but at least you'll be able to doff your cap at his lordship when he passes you sitting outside the pub with a brace of rabbits at your feet

I was talking about local democracy not feudalism.

That's what you get without some sort of central rules. I have no problem at all with federalism within a large union and totally agree with your idea of a totally devolved country but you need centralised and agreed rules for it to work.

[Ray of Sunshine]

That's what you get without some sort of central rules. I have no problem at all with federalism within a large union and totally agree with your idea of a totally devolved country but you need centralised and agreed rules for it to work.

But you seem to believe in oligarchy not democracy.

[Stooo]

We've already got a big trade deficit with the EU.

We haven't been manufacturing nation for a long time, we have a service-based economy.

Other European countries are the same or going the same way, we can't compete with manufacturing with China because our wages are a lot higher.

Services aren't covered unless we have FOM. So what do we trade with, whiskey and cakes?

[Stooo]

That's what you get without some sort of central rules. I have no problem at all with federalism within a large union and totally agree with your idea of a totally devolved country but you need centralised and agreed rules for it to work.

But you seem to believe in oligarchy not democracy.

How do you come to that conclusion?

[Ray of Sunshine]

How do you come to that conclusion?

Maybe that's not the right word, a Bureaucracy is actually what you believe in.

I don't support the EU because of the it's "demographic deficit", it's lack of democratic legitimacy.

It was actually the Young European Federalists who first coined that term, Pro-Europeans used to be the ones arguing for the EC/EU to be reformed to address that deficit, and giving the EU Parliament proper law-making powers, whereas Eurosceptics wanted to reduce the Parliament's powers even more.

[Ray of Sunshine]

Stooo I do hope you're not like that Remainer woman on Twitter who said she managed to win over some poor dumb TV repairman to her cause with her superior intellect.