The Hillsborough Disaster.

[Vicky]

He's probably getting paid the same to sit at home, and will of course draw his full pension. I'm sure he doesn't care one way or the other at this point.


I still can't wrap my head around people trampling each other at a sporting event unless cops pointed guns at people and forced them to keep moving when there was no where to go.

There wasn't anywhere to go Madders.

There was a 10ft fence at the front and the people at the front, were crushed against it and couldn't get away.

I get that. When there is no where to go, people should stop moving forward. If you are touching another human, stop. The cops could have handled it better, but there is something about soccer in the UK that leads to people getting hurt. It's a game.

I know it's a game Madders, but some people take it to extremes and it leads to trouble.

I'm not going to go Holier than thou, because the team I supports rivarly with Celtic, is amongst the worst.

It's led to murders, riots, countless assaults and even bombs being sent through the post.

(By the way, I've never done any of those things)

[wutang]

Hillsborough and Battle of Orgreave: one police force, two disgraces

South Yorkshire police, who blamed Liverpool supporters for the disaster in 1989, had made strikingly similar blunders during the miners' strike in 1984, when 95 men were prosecuted for rioting – all were acquitted amid allegations of fabrication

They were two of the bitterest landmarks of the 1980s, but the connections between them have not previously been fully appreciated – the Hillsborough disaster, 23 years ago this Sunday, in which 96 Liverpool supporters died, and the "Battle for Orgreave" five years earlier, the most violent episode of the coal miners' strike.

Speaking to the Guardian, the prominent lawyer Michael Mansfield QC and the Merseyside MP and shadow cabinet minister Maria Eagle said they believed South Yorkshire police's conduct at Orgreave and in its aftermath, when it brought failed prosecutions against 95 miners, revealed a culture of malpractice with impunity that had not been remedied by the time the same force policed the Hillsborough disaster in 1989.

The similarities between the events have not been fully explored, they argue, but the links will help to inform the Hillsborough families' fight for some form of justice – the full truth about what happened to the victims, and accountability from those culpable.

The families hope that this will be a pivotal year for their campaign, as an independent panel of experts chaired by James Jones, the bishop of Liverpool, is examining 500,000 internal, official documents relating to Hillsborough, the majority from South Yorkshire police. The panel will write a report, due in the autumn, explaining what those documents add to the "public understanding" of the disaster.

After both Orgreave and Hillsborough, South Yorkshire police – under its chief constable, Peter Wright, who died last year – was accused of the concerted fabrication of evidence against the miners and Liverpool supporters respectively. After a substantial reform of the force begun by the chief constable who succeeded Wright, Richard Wells, the disclosure of the documents was initiated in 2009 by the then chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, in a spirit of greater openness over Hillsborough.

After Orgreave, South Yorkshire police claimed they had been attacked by striking miners, and prosecuted 95 people for riot and unlawful assembly, offences that carried potential life sentences. All were acquitted, after defence lawyers argued that police evidence was false, fabricated and that an officer's signature on a statement was forged.

Mansfield, who defended three of the accused miners, describes the prosecutions as "the biggest frame-up ever". Mansfield argues that South Yorkshire police, under Wright, had been "institutionally corrupt" and was still unreformed when the Liverpool supporters came to Sheffield for the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... e-orgreave

The same Government-Media-Police cover up that allowed South Yorkshire police to get away with Orgreaves allowed it to get away with what happened at Hillsborough.

And still whenever the Police lie and cover up its murdereous actions (Ian Tomlinson, Charles de Menezes, Mark Duggan, etc) the same media swallow and regurgitate the lies to help them.

[wutang]

After Thatcher died

[Garrett1]

I still can't wrap my head around people trampling each other at a sporting event unless cops pointed guns at people and forced them to keep moving when there was no where to go.

Me neither, but hey, folks seem extremely reluctant to discuss this aspect for some same reason....

[wutang]

I still can't wrap my head around people trampling each other at a sporting event unless cops pointed guns at people and forced them to keep moving when there was no where to go.

Me neither, but hey, folks seem extremely reluctant to discuss this aspect for some same reason....

Because its been covered in detailed by the media, here a short video explaining the situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36103823

Crowds by default need to be carefully managed, especially in a situation like this - 10,000 going through just 7 turnstiles, thousands essentially trapped in a small area. I dont know if you have ever been to a big music festival before but once the crowd gets moving you are dragged along with it. There is a whole science dedicated to understanding crowd dynamics, which is why crowd management is an important health and safety requirement for these kinds of events.

The commanders had the option to delay the kick off which would have given them more time to slowly disperse the crowd, they choose not to. So many fucks up by the people in charge and instead of holding their hands up afterwards they shifted the blame onto the victims.

[Maddog]

I still can't wrap my head around people trampling each other at a sporting event unless cops pointed guns at people and forced them to keep moving when there was no where to go.

Me neither, but hey, folks seem extremely reluctant to discuss this aspect for some same reason....

Because its been covered in detailed by the media, here a short video explaining the situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36103823

Crowds by default need to be carefully managed, especially in a situation like this - 10,000 going through just 7 turnstiles, thousands essentially trapped in a small area. I dont know if you have ever been to a big music festival before but once the crowd gets moving you are dragged along with it. There is a whole science dedicated to understanding crowd dynamics, which is why crowd management is an important health and safety requirement for these kinds of events.

The commanders had the option to delay the kick off which would have given them more time to slowly disperse the crowd, they choose not to. So many fucks up by the people in charge and instead of holding their hands up afterwards they shifted the blame onto the victims.

I have been to sporting events with close to 100,000 people. I have been in stadiums over capacity. Folks where I live tend to self regulate. I guess the cops should have known better. They knew what kind of folks they were dealing with. This wouldn't happen at the ballet, but it was likely at a soccer match.

[Garrett1]

I still can't wrap my head around people trampling each other at a sporting event unless cops pointed guns at people and forced them to keep moving when there was no where to go.

Me neither, but hey, folks seem extremely reluctant to discuss this aspect for some same reason....

Because its been covered in detailed by the media, here a short video explaining the situation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36103823

Thanks for the vid, but still not totally convinced the fans are 100% innocent. The fact that they have to be held in pens to stop them tearing each other to bits seems the main reason for this disaster.
I can't think of any other sporting event where the fans have to be penned like this for their own safety.

Also if like you say 10,000 people had to go through 7 turnstiles wouldn't you expect any "crushing" to happen at the turnstiles, not after where they would be "trickling " out of the turnstiles into the pens?

[wutang]

I have been to sporting events with close to 100,000 people. I have been in stadiums over capacity. Folks where I live tend to self regulate. I guess the cops should have known better. They knew what kind of folks they were dealing with. This wouldn't happen at the ballet, but it was likely at a soccer match.

Well they didnt, and they have been blaming the fans ever since (backed up by the media and political class) but the truth was always going to emerge from their lies.

The jury found the fans innocent, so you and garret can think what you want, they were innocent and hopefully charges will be brought against those responsible.... the police.

[Garrett1]

I have been to sporting events with close to 100,000 people. I have been in stadiums over capacity. Folks where I live tend to self regulate. I guess the cops should have known better. They knew what kind of folks they were dealing with. This wouldn't happen at the ballet, but it was likely at a soccer match.

Well they didnt, and they have been blaming the fans ever since (backed up by the media and political class) but the truth was always going to emerge from their lies.

The jury found the fans innocent, so you and garret can think what you want, they were innocent and hopefully charges will be brought against those responsible.... the police.

I fully agree that the police etc should be held responsible for their lies and coverups, but am also convinced that the fans, and their previous infamous behaviour hold some responsibility.

Would this disaster have occurred if the fans were not coralled into high fenced pens? Yes or no?

[Maddog]

I have been to sporting events with close to 100,000 people. I have been in stadiums over capacity. Folks where I live tend to self regulate. I guess the cops should have known better. They knew what kind of folks they were dealing with. This wouldn't happen at the ballet, but it was likely at a soccer match.

Well they didnt, and they have been blaming the fans ever since (backed up by the media and political class) but the truth was always going to emerge from their lies.

The jury found the fans innocent, so you and garret can think what you want, they were innocent and hopefully charges will be brought against those responsible.... the police.

Innocent? Or not guilty?

I think this was inevitable. Eventually fans were going to act like the fools they have been acting like, and the cops would drop the ball.

It's difficult to get it right every time when you deal with children. The cops should have just admitted they dropped the ball and moved on.

[wutang]

I fully agree that the police etc should be held responsible for their lies and coverups, but am also convinced that the fans, and their previous infamous behaviour hold some responsibility.

Well the two year inquiry looked at that and the jury decided that the fans had no responsibility for the disaster. The fact that the police desperately lied in order to cover it up shows thats (such as the lie that the liverpool fans forced their way into the exit gate when it was the Police themselves who ordered it to be opened it and left it open).... they were still repeating these lies at the inquest (such as fans robbing the victims) which is why the current South Yorks Police chief has been suspended.

David Conn, who has been covering the case for 20 years gives an update in todays Guardian Football podcast. Worth checking out if you are interested.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... ekly-extra

[Garrett1]

You didn't answer this Wutang -

"Would this disaster have occurred if the fans were not coralled into high fenced pens? Yes or no?"

[wutang]

You didn't answer this Wutang -

"Would this disaster have occurred if the fans were not coralled into high fenced pens? Yes or no?"

I dont know? what we do know is that South Yorkshire Police made fundamental mistakes that day that lead to 96 people dying and then spent 27 years lying and blaming the victims for their own mistakes.

Not only that but as Orgreaves showed that Police force was pretty fucked up and ruthless, and I have no doubt that ruthlessness played a part in the events of that day and the 27 years after. David Conn again:

The evidence built into a startling indictment of South Yorkshire police, their chain of command and conduct – a relentlessly detailed evisceration of a British police force. Responsible for an English county at the jeans-and-trainers end of the 1980s, the force had brutally policed the miners’ strike, and was described by some of its own former officers as “regimented”, with morning parade and saluting of officers, ruled by “an iron fist” institutionally unable to admit mistakes.

Meanwhile the fans were the ones trying to save lives...

The overwhelming evidence, shown in BBC colour footage of the horrific scene, contrary to the lurid, defamatory tales spun afterwards by the police, was of Liverpool supporters heroically helping. The “fans” – a label too often applied to depict a dehumanised mob – included doctors, nurses and police officers, alongside scores of people with no medical training who, once they had escaped themselves, fought instinctively to save lives.

I would recommend reading his full report on the inquest

Hillsborough disaster: deadly mistakes and lies that lasted decades

As the longest inquest in British legal history unfolded, a picture emerged of a callously negligent police force led by an inexperienced commander whose actions directly led to the deaths of 96 people

http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... ed-decades

[wutang]

Just reading through that report its shocking how bad the Commander (Duckenfield) was. Not only that but he had no expierence commanding a match at Hillsborough... let alone a semi final there

Wright’s high-handed rule was at the root of the disaster, the inquests heard. Just 19 days before the semi-final, he abruptly moved his seasoned, expert, popular commander at Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough stadium, Ch Supt Brian Mole. In Mole’s place, Wright promoted Duckenfield, who had never commanded a match at Hillsborough before, nor even been on duty there for 10 years

This shit

...he admitted to Christina Lambert QC, for the coroner, Sir John Goldring, that he failed to do basic preparation for the semi-final. He did not study relevant paperwork, including the force’s major incident procedure, and signed off the operational plan two days after taking over, before he had even visited the ground.

He turned up to command the semi-final, he admitted, knowing very little about Hillsborough’s safety history: about the crushes at the 1981 and 1988 semi-finals, or that the approach to the Leppings Lane end was a “natural geographical bottleneck” to which Mole had carefully managed supporters’ entry.

Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing

Holy fucking shit that is gross negligence on a massive scale....

This prick better get convicted for this shit!!!!!

[Maddog]

Just reading through that report its shocking how bad the Commander (Duckenfield) was. Not only that but he had no expierence commanding a match at Hillsborough... let alone a semi final there

Wright’s high-handed rule was at the root of the disaster, the inquests heard. Just 19 days before the semi-final, he abruptly moved his seasoned, expert, popular commander at Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough stadium, Ch Supt Brian Mole. In Mole’s place, Wright promoted Duckenfield, who had never commanded a match at Hillsborough before, nor even been on duty there for 10 years

This shit

...he admitted to Christina Lambert QC, for the coroner, Sir John Goldring, that he failed to do basic preparation for the semi-final. He did not study relevant paperwork, including the force’s major incident procedure, and signed off the operational plan two days after taking over, before he had even visited the ground.

He turned up to command the semi-final, he admitted, knowing very little about Hillsborough’s safety history: about the crushes at the 1981 and 1988 semi-finals, or that the approach to the Leppings Lane end was a “natural geographical bottleneck” to which Mole had carefully managed supporters’ entry.

Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing

Holy fucking shit that is gross negligence on a massive scale....

This prick better get convicted for this shit!!!!!

So there was a history of this crap happening in the past?

Sounds like the cop in charge was not qualified to deal with people that act like fools.

All of this over a damn game. No doubt the cops fucked up. No doubt people who loose perspective also cause these problems.

We don't have these problems at college football games (games played and watched by kids who drink all day), and our cops are not exactly intellectuals.