The Hillsborough Disaster.

[Maddog]

54,000?

So like a High School football game in Texas?

Do you have terraces at these games?

The bigger ones have more than one level. Plus we play them in college stadiums and sometimes Cowboy stadium.

We don't have pens, except for livestock.

Plus we open the gates a few hours before game time. There is no rush to see kickoff as you have been in the stadium awhile.

Of course we don't have "firms" who think it's clever to fight before a game either.

Basketball games don't apply it seems.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/30/nyreg ... wanted=all

I don't live in NY, nor claim it. Besides, that was a bunch of rap stars playing basketball, so blame the rap culture, not the basketball culture.

[calitom]

I am sure England has cleaned up a lot of the scariness that is associated with its sport culture since those disastrous and ugly times in the 80s.
Shameful time for the UK esp England.
I remember being in London in 1985 and walking past some soccer stadium that was just letting out after the game/match.---I had been to many rowdy football games in the US
but had never felt such an unstable/scary vibe as I did listening to these soccer people coming out of the stadium. Very creep and very ugly.

[Stooo]

I am sure England has cleaned up a lot of the scariness that is associated with its sport culture since those disastrous and ugly times in the 80s.
Shameful time for the UK esp England.
I remember being in London in 1985 and walking past some soccer stadium that was just letting out after the game/match.---I had been to many rowdy football games in the US
but had never felt such an unstable/scary vibe as I did listening to these soccer people coming out of the stadium. Very creep and very ugly.

No-one got shot though...

[Guest]

54,000?

So like a High School football game in Texas?

Do you have terraces at these games?

The bigger ones have more than one level. Plus we play them in college stadiums and sometimes Cowboy stadium.

We don't have pens, except for livestock.

Plus we open the gates a few hours before game time. There is no rush to see kickoff as you have been in the stadium awhile.

Of course we don't have "firms" who think it's clever to fight before a game either.

Basketball games don't apply it seems.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/30/nyreg ... wanted=all

I don't live in NY, nor claim it. Besides, that was a bunch of rap stars playing basketball, so blame the rap culture, not the basketball culture.

Why do you find it so hard to lay the blame where it should be laid Maddog, that is with the people supposed to have been in control?

The fans at Hillsborough weren't misbehaving, they weren't drunk, they were just trying to watch a game of football. The people at the back who kept on going forward had no clue about what was happening to the people at the front. After the gate was opened to relieve the crowding at the turnstiles the people just followed the signs directing them into those pens. The crowd was moving forward the people at the front were getting crushed. The people who should have been in control of where the fans were going weren't and that is what caused the disaster.

The bad decisions that were made that day by the officials caused the deaths of 96 people and then they lied about it to cover it up.

[Maddog]

In this specific case, the blame lies with the cops. However, the cops did not create the culture called the "English Disease". All police actions will be made with that infliction in mind.

Excusing idiots for not being able to watch a game without fighting with the opposition overlooks a reason cops had to have so many plans over watching a damn game.

Could someone explain to me what a fucking pen is and why would people be placed in one?

[Trapper John]

I wonder if the families, will sue the police?

An inquest ruled Rangers were at fault for the Ibrox Disaster and most of the families sued them.

The Scousers are after compo?

I think they're going to sue the police, Stooo.

Hold on, we pay for the Police.

£19 million is the ball park figure mentioned by the legal firm representing 400 family members, surely no-one believed this has been all about just getting a 'sorry' from the Police and vindication for the dead.

Still that is dwarfed by the cost this whole debacle has cost the taxpayer over the years - might be less grinding on the nerves if at least someone in Liverpool actually paid taxes.

[Lexi]

A young girl I know from our school days, was crushed at Hillsborough and her back was broken, she has been in a wheelchair ever since! She is not a 'hooligan' or 'drunken thug'! She is an innocent victim of police negligence and I'm so relieved for the families that they have finally gotten justice.

[Garrett1]

A young girl I know from our school days, was crushed at Hillsborough and her back was broken, she has been in a wheelchair ever since! She is not a 'hooligan' or 'drunken thug'! She is an innocent victim of police negligence and I'm so relieved for the families that they have finally gotten justice.

Christ! I get more sense out of my pet crow than some of you here.

Nobody is suggesting that the police were NOT negligent.

The point I, and it seems Maddog, are making is that football fans disgraceful behaviour around this time had become so bad that it was deemed necessary to keep them in pens to stop them trying to kill each other.

If they weren't penned in they wouldn't have been crushed in this way. Therefore the behaviour of PREVIOUS football fans lead to a policy of all fans having to be physically seperated at matches by being put in pens.

Therefore football "fans" hold some responsibility for this tragedy. Get it now Wutang etc?

[Trapper John]

A young girl I know from our school days, was crushed at Hillsborough and her back was broken, she has been in a wheelchair ever since! She is not a 'hooligan' or 'drunken thug'! She is an innocent victim of police negligence and I'm so relieved for the families that they have finally gotten justice.

Christ! I get more sense out of my pet crow than some of you here.

Nobody is suggesting that the police were NOT negligent.

The point I, and it seems Maddog, are making is that football fans disgraceful behaviour around this time had become so bad that it was deemed necessary to keep them in pens to stop them trying to kill each other.

If they weren't penned in they wouldn't have been crushed in this way. Therefore the behaviour of PREVIOUS football fans lead to a policy of all fans having to be physically seperated at matches by being put in pens.

Therefore football "fans" hold some responsibility for this tragedy. Get it now Wutang etc?

Which is why penning and fencing in fans was stopped and all containment barriers were removed from all football grounds, very soon after.

[guest]

A young girl I know from our school days, was crushed at Hillsborough and her back was broken, she has been in a wheelchair ever since! She is not a 'hooligan' or 'drunken thug'! She is an innocent victim of police negligence and I'm so relieved for the families that they have finally gotten justice.

Christ! I get more sense out of my pet crow than some of you here.

Nobody is suggesting that the police were NOT negligent.

The point I, and it seems Maddog, are making is that football fans disgraceful behaviour around this time had become so bad that it was deemed necessary to keep them in pens to stop them trying to kill each other.

If they weren't penned in they wouldn't have been crushed in this way. Therefore the behaviour of PREVIOUS football fans lead to a policy of all fans having to be physically seperated at matches by being put in pens.

Therefore football "fans" hold some responsibility for this tragedy. Get it now Wutang etc?

Not entirely true. In 1946 thirty-three fans lost their lives in a crush at Bolton Wanderers Burnden Park Stadium.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/118 ... _disaster/

[Garrett1]

A young girl I know from our school days, was crushed at Hillsborough and her back was broken, she has been in a wheelchair ever since! She is not a 'hooligan' or 'drunken thug'! She is an innocent victim of police negligence and I'm so relieved for the families that they have finally gotten justice.

Christ! I get more sense out of my pet crow than some of you here.

Nobody is suggesting that the police were NOT negligent.

The point I, and it seems Maddog, are making is that football fans disgraceful behaviour around this time had become so bad that it was deemed necessary to keep them in pens to stop them trying to kill each other.

If they weren't penned in they wouldn't have been crushed in this way. Therefore the behaviour of PREVIOUS football fans lead to a policy of all fans having to be physically seperated at matches by being put in pens.

Therefore football "fans" hold some responsibility for this tragedy. Get it now Wutang etc?

Not entirely true. In 1946 thirty-three fans lost their lives in a crush at Bolton Wanderers Burnden Park Stadium.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/118 ... _disaster/

What's not entirely true?

Again, the fans behaviour resulted in the tragedy you've linked to -

" with many climbing over walls to get into the ground when the turnstiles were shut in the hope of seeing Stoke star Stanley Matthews in action."

If the turnstiles are closed because the event is full capacity then you go home.

[calitom]

I am sure England has cleaned up a lot of the scariness that is associated with its sport culture since those disastrous and ugly times in the 80s.
Shameful time for the UK esp England.
I remember being in London in 1985 and walking past some soccer stadium that was just letting out after the game/match.---I had been to many rowdy football games in the US
but had never felt such an unstable/scary vibe as I did listening to these soccer people coming out of the stadium. Very creep and very ugly.

No-one got shot though...

Oh I am not making an overall statement about our countries Stooo...no need to be defensive. Just commenting on the weird vibes and that certain period of craziness that was English football in the 80s 90s.--We do our violence mainly in ghettos of large cities amongst drug dealers. Sporting events --given the number of them that we have--is just not where our violence is.

[calitom]

I wonder if the families, will sue the police?

An inquest ruled Rangers were at fault for the Ibrox Disaster and most of the families sued them.

The Scousers are after compo?

I think they're going to sue the police, Stooo.

Hold on, we pay for the Police.

£19 million is the ball park figure mentioned by the legal firm representing 400 family members, surely no-one believed this has been all about just getting a 'sorry' from the Police and vindication for the dead.

Still that is dwarfed by the cost this whole debacle has cost the taxpayer over the years - might be less grinding on the nerves if at least someone in Liverpool actually paid taxes.

so the lawyers get 6.5 million pounds and each of the people's families get 35,000 pounds

[Guest]

A young girl I know from our school days, was crushed at Hillsborough and her back was broken, she has been in a wheelchair ever since! She is not a 'hooligan' or 'drunken thug'! She is an innocent victim of police negligence and I'm so relieved for the families that they have finally gotten justice.

Christ! I get more sense out of my pet crow than some of you here.

Nobody is suggesting that the police were NOT negligent.

The point I, and it seems Maddog, are making is that football fans disgraceful behaviour around this time had become so bad that it was deemed necessary to keep them in pens to stop them trying to kill each other.

If they weren't penned in they wouldn't have been crushed in this way. Therefore the behaviour of PREVIOUS football fans lead to a policy of all fans having to be physically seperated at matches by being put in pens.

Therefore football "fans" hold some responsibility for this tragedy. Get it now Wutang etc?

Not entirely true. In 1946 thirty-three fans lost their lives in a crush at Bolton Wanderers Burnden Park Stadium.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/118 ... _disaster/

What's not entirely true?

Again, the fans behaviour resulted in the tragedy you've linked to -

" with many climbing over walls to get into the ground when the turnstiles were shut in the hope of seeing Stoke star Stanley Matthews in action."

If the turnstiles are closed because the event is full capacity then you go home.

It is not entirely true that if they weren't penned in that they wouldn't have been crushed. The people at the Bolton game weren't penned in and they were crushed.



There was no police cordon to ensure people going to see the match formed orderly queues outside the stadium on the day of the match which resulted in crowd congestion at the seven turnstiles available to the Liverpool fans.

If there had been an adequate police presence outside the stadium they could have got the crowd forming orderly queues preventing the congestion at the turnstiles leading to the decision to open the exit gate.

If the police hadn't opened the exit gate at Hillsborough then those fans wouldn't have entered the tunnel leading to the central pens. If the police had closed the tunnel leading to those pens then the fans would have headed toward the ones with space to hold them.

This had nothing to do with the past or present behaviour of the fans at football matches and everything to do with the inaction of the officials at the game to control the crowd, ensure their safety and prevent what happened. Everything that happened that day was forseeable and preventable and it was unforgivable that the fans were blamed for it and it's unforgivable that you and Maddog are continuing to blame them for it by using the actions of football thugs leading to the introduction of penned terraces in an attempt to troll.

Wherever there is a large crowd of people there is potential for something like this to happen without proper and adequate controls in place to prevent it. Sadly, for those 96 people at Hillsborough that day, that is exactly what did happen.

[Garrett1]

it's unforgivable that you and Maddog are continuing to blame them for it by using the actions of football thugs leading to the introduction of penned terraces in an attempt to troll.

.

Another one that can't fuckin read.

In my opinion the disgraceful behaviour of many football fans in that era contributed to this tragedy. Therefore fans were PARTLY to blame.

Stating a valid opinion is not trolling. Ignorant cunt.